OT: Recommendation for projector

craftech wrote on 11/9/2007, 4:20 PM

The business association to which I belong needs to buy a projector for showing 4:3 and 16:9 SD and, if possible, hi-def as well. Short throw -- 15 to 20 feet max -- and lights on the screen can be dimmed. They're looking for something in the $700 - 800 range.
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There are a few of them around that price. In terms of a 4:3 projector, most will display 16:9 just fine. In terms of Hi-Def, all you need is a projector with an HDMI input or a DVI-D input and a Hi-Def player.

For a business projector the 4:3 projectors have the advantage of being brighter for the most part. Don't forget, the Lumens rating of the projector does not apply to a video signal. A 2000 ANSI Lumens projector may only be putting out 600 ANSI Lumens when projecting video. And contrast ratio is also an overhyped spec.

That said, in that price range I would recommend the Optoma EP719 which goes for around $700-$800.

The Sharp XR-30X that sells for around tthe same.

Both are DLP projectors which is all you will find in that price range.

For a screen, you can make your own for a fraction of the cost, but I need to know if you need it to be portable (which complicates it a little) or fixed (rigid) which is easy.

John

JackW wrote on 11/9/2007, 8:51 PM

Hi John:

Thanks for the quick response. The group meets in a large room in the public library. Room has a built in screen and lights over the screen that can be turned off completely. So a screen isn't an issue.

Showing video will probably be about 75% of the usage, the rest business-type presentations.

I'm prepared to go back to the group and suggest a higher priced unit if that makes more sense. Unfortunately there are a lot of business-types in the group that want to spend as little as possible and get GE Light Gate technology.

Jack

craftech wrote on 11/10/2007, 5:36 AM

Sounds like a fixed screen will work If the video doesn't look all that good. If it doesn't, I would get a 4x8 sheet of Wilsonart Designer White laminate D354-60. You can order a sheet of it from Home Depot or Lowes for around $50-60. It will look as good as very expensive commercial screens.

Don't get a Home Theater projector. They are native 16:9 and too dim for business presentations. They also don't usually work well with ambient light. A 4:3 business projector with a digital input is what you want.

In terms of the cost, don't forget, you will need a Hi-Def player that upconverts SD video to show the movies. That will be an additional cost and a few dollars for a better screen if the one you have doesn't look that great with video. Then there is the cabling (no one beats MonoPrice); and what about the sound system?

John

Chienworks wrote on 11/10/2007, 9:53 AM

"A 2000 ANSI Lumens projector may only be putting out 600 ANSI Lumens when projecting video."

John, that threw me completely off guard. I've never heard of that before. I can say from personal experience that all the projectors i've used look just as bright with video as they do with any other input.

Is there any reasoning or specs for the difference? I sure don't see it.

farss wrote on 11/10/2007, 12:52 PM

I can sort of back that up although I wouldn't have said video so much as film. I've projected 'movies' in cinemas with the same projector they use for running graphics. Video sourced material and by that I mean your typical bright Sony video kind of stuff looked OK (just). The main attraction which was film originated and transferred to video was pretty ugly, there simply wasn't enough light coming out of the projector and anything apart from the highlights pretty much got lost in the mirk. I did have a brief go at regrading the movie to see if that would look any better but I really couldn't get it fly. So in general I'd agree, you need roughly double or triple the lumens if you plan to show movies compared to graphics.

Bob.

randy-stewart wrote on 11/10/2007, 11:24 PM

"A 2000 ANSI Lumens projector may only be putting out 600 ANSI Lumens when projecting video."

That's a new one on me too. I project with a Mitsubishi 2000 lumen projector and have done so in a theater with a smaller 1100 lumen projector next to it and there is quite a bit of difference. Both projected video and powerpoint from about 40 feet onto a theater fixed screen. More lumens made a significant difference in brightness. In fact, I have a sample on my web site of the projection setup and view of the projection here: http://cr-home-videos.com/GroupTalentShowMaster512K.wmv. I haven't tried projecting video converted from film, however. I use a DVD player with S-video into the projector.
Randy

Coursedesign wrote on 11/11/2007, 12:44 AM

John is right for business/mixed use projectors.

Light output ratings are a joke.

With computer graphics, there is little demand for color accuracy, so manufacturers can get away with flame thrower numbers.

When you project video (especially film-originated, but not only), you quickly find when you try to color-calibrate the projector that you can't do it at all unless you turn down the brightness big time.

That is the source of this difference.

randy-stewart wrote on 11/11/2007, 9:25 AM

Thanks for the information. Would never have thought that.
Randy

craftech wrote on 11/11/2007, 3:18 PM

First of all, ANSI lumens ratings are highly misleading as it pertains to brightness. What you see on a screen is a product of a projector's light output and the reflecivity of the screen itself. The ANSI lumens rating suggests the light capability of the projector and the foot lamberts rating suggests the light (total amount) being reflected back at the audience. Screens have a "gain" rating as well. Much of this is dependent also upon the ambient light in the room and to complicate matters it is reduced for video output (varies) and the projector bulb (averaging $400) dims progressively each time you use it. And some don't last nearly as long as the number of hours they claim. For group presentations the business group the original poster referenced needs to invest in a spare bulb as well. It is likely to blow out in the middle of something with no way to continue without a spare bulb. If you are used to slide projector bulbs don't get alarmed. Digital projector lamps last a lot longer than slide projector bulbs.

Since this projector is not intended for a home, the throw distance and lens shift are not important considerations and can be ignored. But the brightness and contrast ratio are a consideration because of the distance and potential ambient light and nature of the business oriented presentations/ video needs.

If you plan to use a projector in a room with ambient light you need a screen that has a liminance of around 55 foot lamberts.

Also, some of the home theater projectors incorporate video optomization built into their ANSI lumens ratings. Business projectors typically do not. With a business projector luimens are important. For video a combination of lumens and contrast ratio are important. For the original poster's needs a fairly bright business projector that has a contrats ratio of at least 600:1 . The black levels may not be the blackest, but it should not be distracting. In either case the room should be as dark as possible for watching video with that type of projector.

There are also two lamp modes on most projectors - economy mode and normal (bright mode) as well as brightness curves (settings) like "movie, graphics, etc on all business projectors. You need to experiment.

Using the Sharp XR-30X I referenced above and a Projector Calculator one can play with the variables to determine one's needs. The calculator can be used, of course, with other commonly available projectors. And it factors in the loss in brightness when optimized for video.

John

Chienworks wrote on 11/11/2007, 3:29 PM

OK, but the question remains ... does the projector get dimmer when projecting video than when projecting other media? That seems to be what was implied by your statement. And if so, it would seem the only way the projector would know is by whether it's using the VGA input vs. the video/S-video input. And that being the case, if you played video on a PC through the VGA connector would that be brighter than video through the video/S-video input? Or does the projector have some fancy logic for deciding if the signal coming in is a movie instead of an excel spreadsheet and therefore purposely dims the bulb for better color rendition?

Or are you just saying that in general, no matter what you project, a 2000 lumen projector really only puts about 600 lumens on the screen? If that's the case then, well, yeah, we all know that projectors aren't as bright as we'd like them to be.

craftech wrote on 11/11/2007, 6:42 PM

Kelly,

I had a really long explanation I worked on and when I went to post it, it disappeared. Let me do this again tomorrow. I can't do it all over again tonight. Should learn my lesson and do the long stuff in a word doc first.

John.

craftech wrote on 11/12/2007, 9:12 AM

..does the projector get dimmer when projecting video than when projecting other media?
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The settings, adjustments, and inputs all affect the lumens output depending upon what is being projected and what you are using as a source.

When you first get a digital projector you discover that there are presets and at least one manually adjustable setting that can be calibrated, but the extent to which it can be calibrated is often limited depending upon the model and type (business or home theater) and the input being used. Virtually all settings produce a reduction from the stated lumens spec (which may or may not have been stated with video optimization factored in).

Video optimization and color photo presentation both require that in manual mode the white balance be calibrated to 6500K. That alone will reduce the lumens output. The presets for “movie mode”, “video mode”, or “graphics mode” lower the lumens output to varying degrees depending upon the model. Those names vary from model to model, but you get the idea. It is usually only the “text mode” or “presentation mode” (on a business projector) that comes anywhere near the stated lumens output of the projector. Some HT projectors have those “business settings” as well and their stated ANSI lumens rating may or may not reflect that setting to inflate the actual brightness of the projector.

Then there are at least two overall light output settings on most projectors. They are sometimes called “normal” (brightest/brighter) and “economy” (reduced brightness) and are not calibrated the same on every projector. Switching those settings on and off will change the lumens output to varying degrees for each preset including the manual preset and affect the contrast ratio as well.

From 0 to 100 IRE the uniformity also varies from the white balance. If the projector is well made it will vary no more than around 10 degrees from 6500K throughout the range producing pleasing color accuracy at most lumens settings.

Let’s take my NEC LT380 for example since it is a 4:3 business projector that also serves as an HT projector when not on the road. It has a stated ANSI lumens rating of 3000 ANSI lumens and a 600:1 (on-off) Contrast ratio. When tested my projector produces 1980 ANSI Lumens with the brightest “presentation preset” in the “Normal” (bright) lamp mode. In “economy mode” with the “presentation preset” the projector drops to 1460 ANSI lumens.
Optomized for video use at 6500K in the RGB (manual) setting the 3000 ANSI lumens projector produces 1003 ANSI lumens. Not bad actually. Of course all that will also vary with the distance from the screen. The blacks aren’t the blackest, but video displays well with ambient light and in large auditoriums. When projecting widescreen video material some of the light is lost in the “black bars” area at the top and bottom depending upon the settings and the aspect ratio being displayed.

Now let’s take a popular 1080p Home Theater projector, the Panasonic PT-AE2000U. It has an ANSI lumens rating of 1500 and a contrast ratio (on-off) of 16000:1. The brightness rating for that model factors in video optimization, but it still will be reduced in the following way:
The presets are video optimized. It has three: Cinema 1, 2, and 3. The measured lumens output for those settings are 345, 390 and 370 ANSI lumens respectively. Cinema 1 appears to be the most popular setting in that it gives the most preferred black level and color accuracy at 6500K in a pitch black room.
The “normal” preset gives the brightest useable “measured” level at 900 ANSI lumens displaying a cooler video image overall. In the “super bright” setting the colors are blue-green and awful. The unit’s separate color temperature control is very nice as it will allow you to set up the unit in “normal mode” with a pleasing picture and still produce 600 ANSI lumens - which is good.

With all projectors there are screen size/distance limitations. The Panasonic PT-AE2000U that I just mentioned is a Home Theater projector that will not work well with a 16:9 screen size above 110” diagonal in “Normal” mode unless you are using a high gain screen. There is always a trade off with a projector between image size and image quality (color balance and color saturation). As you increase image size you lose effective contrast and color saturation. On the Panasonic that trade off is minimal.

In terms of the inputs, they make a difference as well in that the most common input used today mated with hi-Def upconverting players is the HDMI or DVI-D input. Most projectors (particularly business projectors) with those inputs limit the adjustments one can make manually and in some cases one can only adjust brightness, contrast, deinterlace on-off, black level, and aspect ratio. Thus the presets and normal vs econo modes make huge differences in terms of video optimization and the resulting lumens output. When you use the composite, S-Video, or component, or VGA inputs you get more adjustments, but lose the scaling ability as most upscaling players won’t upscale over component, S-Video, or composite - only over HDMI(digital).

John