[I]"could I for instance connect a Zoom H2n directly to the PA?"[/I]

The issue here is what on the PA system are you going to connect the Zoom to. From my limited experience with PA systems in churches there's no Record Output or similar. If you're lucky you might be able to get to the speaker outputs but you'll need a DI box between those and the Zoom. Even that I cannot be too certain of because some such PA systems have 70V or 100V speaker outputs.

Personally the only time I rely on the feed from a house system is when I know the person operating it.

Bob.

IF you manage to get line out from the PA - beware! The max level the H2 zoom can handle on the input is about 200mV (without clipping). For a good result you need an attenuator of 20dB (10:1). Alternatively make sure that the max level from the mixer is at -20 dB. This level thing has bitten many, including me.

Lesson learned - never use line in without monitoring the result before the actual recording!

Cheers

Christian

Thanks for the advice guys. Although the church is huge, there's only around 60 people attending, so I'm positive that won't make any difference. Connecting to the church PA is pretty much as I feared - and why I've never felt the need to do it. Apart from the fact of course, if it goes wrong...who gets the blame? ;-)
So looks like they'll have to put up with the echo. No software solutions currently for afterwards?

[I]"No software solutions currently for afterwards?"[/I]

There is but it seems to me to work best at removing echo with a short reverberation time. When it gets to the point that the echo is so bad you feel you really have to do something about it because the speech is unintelligible it really isn't of any help.

Bob.

Bob's idea is the correct one.
A couple of DI boxes should be in every shooter's kit.
Something as inexpensive as the Ultra-DI will handle high line voltages and currents. You can hook them directly to 3KW speaker outputs in a pinch (I've done it).

Don't agree at all MV10. The venues PA is NOT my responsibility. And fiddling with it is a DEFINITE no no. As I said above, anything goes wrong, it's my neck on the block. You'll note that Bob also said "when he knows the person operating it". Most churches (this side of the pond anyways) have someone who knows how to switch on/off and that's it. There's also a time factor with live event shooting - it's very much run and gun. You can't afford to be faffing about at the back of the PA system, when the bride and groom are on the church steps getting confetti thrown.

Izotope now offers a "Dereverb" plugin. I've found it useful, in small doses, in removing some ambience from recording in overly live rooms. It's not a cure all and does not replace good recording techniques, but it's certainly worth a look!

Reverb and echo are not quite the same things. Reverb comes from multiple echos. The processing for reberb ("live" or "ambient" sound reinforcement) may not work so well on one or a few strong echos (repeated utterance). Then again, it might even work better!

As the poet said, "Suck it and see".

I would recommend recording with live mics AND a feed from the 'house' PA as well as mics on the groom and officiant. (all on separate tracks)

This has been and is discussed ad nauseam over at the DVinfo audio forum.
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/

There's not a lot one can do to reduce the echo after the fact, but as was stated, the iZotope RX3 advanced has a 'Deverb' process that 'may' help.. it's relatively costly, and I couldn't guarantee good results.

I don't know how many times I've just set either a hardwired or wireless mic right in front of one of the speakers. Works really well.

I carry an XLR splitter and some extra mic cables as well. Sometimes I'll put a splitter between the podium mic and the mixer. But that doesn't always work because there may be more than one mic. There are a lot of powered speakers being used these days. Sometimes you can easily split a feed to a powered speaker.

My "I really have no idea of what is happening" solution is to just stick a mic in front of one of the PA speakers though. If the high and low frequency drivers are a little apart, make sure your mic is positioned where it will pick them both up. This usually means that it is more in line with the high frequency driver.

Arthur, hooking in is not "twiddling."

You ask the house tech if he/she can patch you in, hand he/she an XLR or 1/4", whichever is preferred, and deal with whatever comes out the other end. It's called "being prepared." Hardly outside your line of responsibility as someone who has been asked (paid?) to capture the event.

A DI box goes between the board and you, protecting both sides, and normalizes the signal to your inputs (-40dB to 0dB). That's why you need them.

I've shot in some long, all marble-and-granite cathedrals, even antiphonal Gregorian choirs, and I know the challenges as well as anyone. If the house has its audio working, by all means take advantage of it, but in addition to your other audio resources, not instead of them.

As an alternative, you may just want to consider renting or owning enough lapels for everyone.

Just to clarify laurence. There will be a lav on the groom, and another on the lectern. No problem with that. Good sound from both the couple and the readers. In this country, the idea of sticking anything else "in front of the speakers" would not be allowed. Especially in front of the bride & groom. You could actually be asked to leave the church! That's no exaggeration. The only reason I'm allowed the Lav on the lectern is because it's so small. I have to hide the recorder. (Zoom H2n)
I've marvelled at the easy going attitude the clergy seems to have over on your side of the pond. I've used your method of placing a recorder in front of the speakers before, but in this case, the speakers are about 15 feet in the air!

I'll just say this one last time MV10. There is no house tech. There never is. Either at the church OR the reception venue. Someone who can switch on/off is as good as it gets.

Other points.
Extra lapels for everyone? See above re most vicars in this country. They 'may' wear their own, but in 20 years I've never come across one who would even consider wearing one of MY lavs - together with the extra receiver!

You're confusing concerts/choirs with a wedding. Whenever I've attended live functions where there is a professional sound desk, sound is easy. There's also FAR more setup time. I've covered many live bands/concerts. Totally different kettle of fish. With weddings over here you're lucky if the church opens 45mins before the ceremony starts. A few weeks back, I got inside less than 20mins before. In that time, I need to get both camera positions setup, and get establishing shots of the inside, then get back outside for Groom/guests/bridesmaids/brides arrival. Time to faff about with the church's PA? I think not.
From my previous conversations with the venue, even if I arrived with a dedicated sound man, the church won't give access to their equipment. I won't be doing that though anyway, as I've not been paid extra for it.

I will add that this particular church is on a main road with no parking. I've got to park up the road in a multi-story car park, and lump all of my equipment to and from there. Weddings are 'run and gun'. The lighter the kit the better.

Edit: Talking about lack of setup time reminded me a Joel Peregrine training DVD I had many years a go. In it he talks about getting into the church the night before to get setup! That pretty much describes the differences between the US and UK. He's been one of my biggest influences.
https://vimeo.com/weddingfilmsdotcom

AS, I completely understand and sympathise with you.

My Mentor, 15 years ago, would politely get his way forward till he'd get his shotgun to pickup as much as possible.

It's a hard job.

G

I've done very few weddings, but when it's family it's hard to avoid. At my sister in law's wedding, I put Zoom H2N on a mic stand in between where the preacher and bride and groom were standing and turned it on just before the service. I had everyone's permission and they were all aware it was there. I synced the audio in editing with Dual Eyes and it worked fantastically well. Very natural sounding with perfect clarity. In another wedding for a friend's son, I hung a mic from the pagoda where the vows were made. That worked really well too. It was just sort of dangling there above their heads a few feet over them.

I have often used a short shotgun with battery power on a mic stand with a bulb type transmitter at events. You can just grab it and move it somewhere close at the last minute, and with a hemisphere cardiod pattern of a short shotgun type mic, the placement isn't highly critical.

With raised speakers, a mic on a stand on the floor pointed up at one speaker actually will sound pretty good. Yes there will be echo, but less there than anywhere else.

Don't use anything too directional. A simple cardiod is a directional as I would get. The problem is that direction mics work by cancelling out what comes in at the side with what is coming in at the front. Outdoors or on a soundstage this works well because there isn't a lot of reflected side sound coming in. In a highly reverberent setting, there is all kinds of reflected stuff coming in at the sides and the cancellation just sounds out of phase and horrible.

[I]" the speakers are about 15 feet in the air"[/I]

And often aimed in the worst possible direction for echo.

If you could afford them the phased array shotgun mics are the go to tool. The cheapest is the Sanken CS-3e and then there's the Schoeps SuperCMIT 2U. I've had a quick play with one and it really is "audio radar" and it'd want to be for $4,500.

Bob.

"the idea of sticking anything else "in front of the speakers" would not be allowed. Especially in front of the bride & groom."

Arthur, the phrase "in front of the speakers" is referring to the PA system's loudspeakers, not to people speaking.

For situations like this i have a little Sony digital audio "note taker", with a built-in mic, which is actually rather high fidelity. I usually find some spot to hide it up near the action, either on the podium, a railing, a music stand, or even in a flower pot, as long as it's within a couple meters of the primary voices. It can record 16 hours straight, so i'll find a place and attach it early before anyone else is there, then start it recording sometimes up to an hour before the event, then stop it and retrieve it at any convenient time afterward.

Having been a member of my church's AV team for close to 10 years, I will concur that churches are ill equipped to provide a feed out from their mixing board, especially if it is asked for just before the start of an event. Another issue is to be sure your wireless lavs are not running on the same frequencies as theirs (if they are using wireless).

Not wanting to question your abilities, just responding based on my experience...

Check to see if the church records their audio, and if so, a copy of the recording would be an ideal way around the issue.

Maybe just pray for less echo. Should be a doddle .

;-)

geoff

Well then, best of luck to 'ya . . .
I've done plenty of church (and amphitheater) weddings too..
I thought you came for experience and advice, but it seems your expectations of impossibility have already become self-fulfilling.
;?)

>Check to see if the church records their audio, and if so, a copy of the recording would be an ideal way around the issue.

Great idea. Both the churches I work for typically record CDs of their church services. Ask a church tech for an audio feed and you are likely to get a blank look since he is probably a volunteer and doesn't really understand how everything is patched. Ask him for a CD though and he'll smile and say "no problem!"

Thanks for all of the suggestions. Most of them had already crossed my mind, but grateful for them none the less. Most are not possible in this particular situation. For instance; very few churches here record anything. I've known only one (A Nigerian wedding) in the past 10 years maybe. This one definitely isn't!

Other suggestions are out of the question simply due to cost. Remember this is one wedding in 20 years that has concerned me in this way. It'd be plain bad business to spend 00's of £ on it, for something that I may never use again. The other thing of course is time. The wedding is this Saturday. I never use new equipment on a wedding until I'm completely happy with it.

The main reason I WILL NOT interfere with a venue's PA system is experience. Probably 10 years ago now, I used 2 wireless systems, one of them operated on a fixed frequency and was clashing with the house mic. The 'switch on/off guy didn't know how to scan for a free channel, so I did it for him. Perfect audio for the speeches. A few days later I get a call from the hotel manager claiming that I was responsible for it not working properly on another wedding - the bride's father was threatening to sue etc etc. All I could say was that it was working perfectly when I left - and I could send him a copy of the speeches to prove it. Luckily I never heard any more. Lesson learnt.

I take a lot of care over every wedding I attend. I wouldn't have driven an almost 100 mile round trip to get to this rehearsal if I didn't. It's an opportunity to check out camera positions and discuss them with the clergy (or more usually ATTEMPT to discuss would be more accurate ;-) ). In this country, where the clergy tell you to stand is where you stay. A few will let you move a bit during the hymns. A few years back, the vicar ordered the photographer out of the wedding for moving around against his instructions. I've attended many weddings where the photographer was not even allowed in the church at all, but WE were, simply because I've attended the rehearsal, and settled his/her mind that we won't be moving around. It's also of course a chance to spot any potential problems...like this one.

Last night I phoned the bride to ask if her uncle (who has travelled from Ireland to conduct the wedding) would let me put another Lav on the alter - which is the main area for concern as it's way up the back of the church away from my camera and the other 2 Lavs. Answer came back a very emphatic no. Which was expected. The alter is out of bounds - for any wedding I've ever attended anyways. She actually said "it'll sound more authentic with the echo anyway won't it?" Jeeeeez looeeeeez...what have I been worried about??

MV10, I'm ALWAYS grateful for others taking the time to impart their experience/advice. I've learnt loads over the years both on this forum and others. It just so happened that for this particular occasion none of them are suitable. One thing I do NOT need is advice given in your own particular "my way is the only way" style. So do me a favour, and don't reply to any threads I start. You may well have shot "plenty" of weddings, but you are totally ignorant of weddings in THIS country. On the other hand, I've attended weddings here from the smallest Anglo Saxon church (just MADE for video LOL) to Saint Paul's cathedral. I'll be at Rochester cathedral in October. I've also shot weddings for many people in the film and TV industry - including one major league producer. There's no tougher audience than that! I would also add, I get a lot of repeat business via friends/relatives of previous clients. Maybe 60 to 70% of my business comes that way. I gave up advertising years ago. (Apart from the website)

At age 62, I continue to enjoy it - what's not to like about attending the best day of someone's life and helping them with their memories?

I'll post a few pics of the inside of the church here after the wedding. May help folks get their head around things.

Cheers, Arthur.