Thanks John,
I recently read though that the only way to view s-vhs is if you have an s-vhs player; is this true? I just need a better image than what I'm getting with my RCA to RCA connetion. I also saw in Videomaker mag, an RCA to S-video (and vice-versa) "converter" but I'm thinking that it doesn't actually send a better picture to the RCA side (kinda like some of the quarter inch to XLR (audio) converters don't actually balance a signal).
Thanks again John,
Randy

S-VHS and S-video are two very different things, so don't confuse them.

S-VHS (medium is Super) is a modification of how the signal is recorded on the tape. It's higher resolution and higher voltage, so it's not compatible with regular VHS. S-VHS tapes played in a regular VHS player will be very distorted and probably not worth watching, if the picture even shows up at all.

S-video (connection is Separate) is a way to send the signal from one video device to another keeping the chroma and luminance signals separate. This is why S-video cables have four conductors instead of two conductors for composite. Composite signal mixes chroma and luminance together on the same carrier and they can interfere with each other.

Regular VHS decks can support S-video and most S-VHS decks also have composite jacks for compatibility with other equipment.

To get back to your original question, S-video is better than composite because it allows the colors to remain sharper and more vivid. However, to get the full benefit, you must go S-video all the way from your computer (or DV->A/V converter) to the VCR and then from the VCR to the TV.

Thank you Kelly,
>However, to get the full benefit, you must go S-video all the way from your computer (or DV->A/V converter) to the VCR and then from the VCR to the TV.<

So, if the client did not use an s-video connection there would not be a noticeable difference in the quality?
Thanks again Kelly,
Randy

Depending on local variations in (good and lousy) equipment, it is possible that if ALL your equipment is better than his, he will get a top notch signal even if he doesn't have S-Video, and it will look pretty good.

On the other hand, if your equipment isn't particularly good, or if you break the S-Video chain before it gets to him, he isn't likely to notice much if any difference.

Stay away for so called RCA to S-Video converters. They are just fancy connectors that pass through the lowest common denominator, that is, it starts as RCA and it won't get any better just by passing it through a wire.

The first thing you need to do to get better VHS copies is reduce the chroma (color)in the signal. VHS just can't handle the chroma saturation that DV can. I do it with a proc. amp in a external time base correction device. This lets me save my productions to DV tape with full color saturation. Great for re-editing from the master or reload for future DVD burning. Also lets me make dubs straight from the computer without rendering a VHS friendly avi.
The new color correction in V4 has a saturation adjustment you can use to drop the colors down when rendering. BTW, this new color correction filter renders at over twice the speed of the HSL filter. Thanks Sofo.
Most svhs vcr's are tweaked to provide a better svhs dub at the expense of regular vhs dubs. Also, svhs tape has a higher luminance spec, but the chroma is still cut off at 3.58mhz like VHS, afaik.
Some cheap vcrs can record a better signal than others. I've found a gem with the Emerson EWV601. Under $60.00 at Wal*Mart. Real basic unit, but has done great on close to one hundred dubs. Give it a try, return it if you don't like it.

HTH
Craig H.

I might add to HPV's post that to get the best VHS copy you need to start with a good original. A lot will depend upon the lighting in the original as well. Stage lighting is the worst in that respect. The range is all over the place and it changes constantly.

The problem is with the VHS media itself. It can't handle the color saturation level that SVHS and DV can both of which pale beside the color range of 35mm motion picture film. You will have to cut back the saturation level as HPV pointed out.
A proc amp is the easiest. VV3 is not. VV4 is much improved as HPV pointed out.
There are ways around it though. One way is to avoid shooting red objects, especially under strong artificial lighting. It will oversaturate the VHS copy so much that by the time you cut back the saturation level so the red looks acceptable, the other colors will be all washed out.

Go to Walmart tomorrow. Awesome place.

I have to add that S-Video is far better than RCA when it comes to making a video. I was using a Sony VCR to make a video, using an Mini DV cam as pass through, and the colors were bleeding over each other. It was terrible to say the least. I thought it was the quality of my Mini DV cam that was not up to par. In short, buy a vcr with S-Video inputs/outputs, you'll like the results.

Here's another vote for using S-Video for dubs. The first time I tried making a dub with RCA cables, I was horrified at what happened to my titles. They just looked terrible. S-video provided a noticeable improvement.

G

S-video, as in cables, is a method of carrying the video signal spread across a few wires. This means less interferance etc. & more of the true signal gets from the source to the destination. Really that's it.

In practice, something that has s-video outputs/inputs usually is higher quality in and of itself, plus the circuitry leading to the s-video jacks may be a bit cleaner then say that going to the rca cable jacks.

Not to be confused with super vhs, which is roughly equivelent to Hi-8, higher resolution then std vhs, but also a different tape altogether. If you can find a good super vhs deck, chances are you'll be happy as the circuitry throughout is a bit better to handle the higher resolution, & they'll normally still work with std vhs.

Copying videos can be done all sorts of ways, but whichever brand equipment you choose, going through jacks and cables is prone to signal loss. In theory at least, there's a lot less chance for error when the tape drives are inches away from each other, avoiding this issue as much as possible. A more technical reason to use a dual tape deck, is that the NTSC specs at least leave a bit of wiggle room when it comes to stuff like black levels & field order. Two separate, non-identical, decks can work perfectly well on their own, but because they are different a copy from one to the other may not look as good as if the decks were the same. Again, like most of this stuff it depends on the manufacturer, but there are a lot of companies making dual head decks nowdays.

A final word, when a deck advertises it's Super VHS (SVHS) compatible - something I've seen with the Go-Video line - it means just that; it'll take an SVHS pre-recorded tape and dumb it down to VHS levels.

mike

Hey thanks everyone,
I reckon since I don't even know what the hell a proc amp is I won't go out and buy one today.
John and Craig, you made me dizzy with all of your tech talk but I straightened right up when you said just go down to Wal-Mart and buy a cheap VCR ( except for buying for the kids, I have always turned my nose up at the Emersons, Sharps, etc). I read this advice somewhere else too but it just sounds so ironic! I suppose I don't have anything to lose though if I can take it back, no questions asked.

wcoxe1 said > On the other hand, if your equipment isn't particularly good, or if you break the S-Video chain before it gets to him, he isn't likely to notice much if any difference.<

My chain would be firewire to Sony PD150 (or Canopus converter later) then s-video out to the VHS s-video in...cool?

Thanks again everyone,
Randy

Firewire to > PD150, fine. S-Video to ? Well, don't go TOO cheap. On the other hand, find out what kind of VCR and TV your client has and expects to use. If it is trash, well, trash will work, too. It is a matter of pride for a lot of people. We like to turn out top notch stuff no matter what, and if it just happens to be shown on good equipment rather than trash, well, all the better. (Trumpets here!) Good luck

Thanks Mike,
>...as the circuitry throughout is a bit better to handle the higher resolution, & they'll normally still work with std vhs.<
That is to say, if one records to a std vhs tape on a svhs deck, the tape will noramally play on a std vhs deck, right?
Thanks again Mike,
Randy

Thanks wcoxe1,
Aside from John's warning about the repair history for Sonicblue, do you (or anyone else) have an opinion on the quality of circuitry for this dual deck
Thanks again wcoxe1,
Randy

S-Video = No shopping at Walmart = inconvenience or potential hassle from vendor for return.

For VHS dubs, the S-Video is not going to make the difference as much as the quality of the individual unit. If the unit wasn't accurately set up at the assembly plant(highly probable today) or if the quality of certain components was dubious (again highly probable)it will not make any difference as to whether or not it has S-Video inputs or just composite inputs. It will look like crap. The S-Video makes a bigger difference when creating a master or when working with a media which has a wider color range and resolution such as SVHS or DV.

If you are working in DV and your master is the computer file and you are outputing directly to VHS through your camera as a transcoder you will suffer minimal generation loss (copies of copies which deteriorate with each copy). That makes a HUGE difference. Use the composite output on your camera directly to the VHS deck and see how it comes out. If you don't like it try another deck.

In other words, take it a little at a time. Go to Walmart and buy a couple of different decks. If you don't like any of them go get a few more. When you find one you like keep it and if you still think something with S-Video IN/OUT will look better buy it from a place like Crutchfield where they won't give you a hard time about returns. When you get the Crutchfield unit run A-B comparisons via S-Video vs Composite until you have made a decision. With three months to return things to Walmart......how can you go wrong?

John

PS: A proc amp is a standalone unit which will do color correction while you watch the results on a good NTSC monitor. They will run around $400 for a decent one and the monitor will run around the same if not more. It's cheaper to mess with the saturation levels in Vegas until you figure out how to lower them or work the color curves as in BillyBoy's tutorials. Or, "as I said.....avoid red".

Sometimes the less expensive gear gives better results. Anyone who uses Vegas should be able to understand that. With that said, don't use cheap cables for anything. It's hard to find a cheap, low quality Svideo cable. But the same can't be said of composite video cables. If it's not a true 75ohm, pencil thickness coax cable your going to lose a ton of signal quality before it reaches the vcr.
The Emerson vcr I mentioned doesn't have an Svideo input. My vhs dubs aren't trash. I've watched them on many different vcr/tv setups. Text doesn't have major jaggies, color doesn't bleed, whites don't bloom and the normal and HIFI audio tracks are close in volume with no distortion.
Tapes make a difference also. People will say you can't get a good quality dub with standard grade vhs tapes. Try an RCA or Sony standard grade vhs tape and you might be suprised.
As said, testing is the only way to know what will work for you.

Craig H.