OT: Taiyo Yuden vs. Ritek G05--Holy Cow!

riredale wrote on 3/1/2006, 5:52 PM

I've been pretty much a Ritek bigot for the past 3 years or so, having burned many hundreds of the G04 (4x) and later the G05 (8x) DVD-R disks. Over the past couple of years, I've also noted that some people would mention that their disks would hang or stutter out in the second half of a full disk. I came to the conclusion that this was just one of those things, where some players just didn't like some disks. Certainly all the disks leaving here would play fine on my Apex and Toshiba players.

About a month ago I began experimenting with the latest version of the "Nero DVD Speed" tool, which is now up to version 4. The new version allows one to run those PI failure graphs that are featured on sites dedicated to the evaluation of new DVD burners. I ran tests on Ritek disks I had burned in the past on various Pioneer burners. I also burned fresh images on Ritek G05 blanks for comparison.

I have never liked the look of printable DVD output, and the wet-finger smearing was something I also wanted to avoid, so from the beginning I have printed to Meritline glossy labels with Epson pigment ink, and then carefully attached the labels to the burned disks with a Stomper tool and a rolling-pin technique. The results have always look great, but over time I also came to conclude that some DVD players just hated disks with labels. Sigh.

Then recently I came across this analysis by John Beale, who has written other logical articles in the past. I decided to try out the Taiyo Yuden disks.

Well, a 100-pack arrived today (Supermediastore, $37, TYG02 8x DVD-R silver top) and I did some test burns from images, using several different full-disk projects and using both DVDdecrypter and Nero to create and then burn the images (to see if it made a difference which burning utility was used). Then I ran the test with Nero DVD Speed as before, and after applying a printed label I ran the test again. I should mention that I burned with a new NEC 3550A, burning at 8x. The burn starts at about 4x but finishes at 8x, and takes about 9 minutes).

Wow.

No. Make that DOUBLE WOW.

The difference between the Ritek G05 and the Taiyo Yuden is stunning and consistent. The PI error rates with the Taiyo disks were generally 1/3 the Ritek rates, and the PI failure rates were maybe one-tenth as bad. Now, from what I've learned about DVDs and the reading process, reading errors are expected even for excellent disks. That's why there are several layers of robust error correction. But since we're dealing with statistical things here, it's also safe to say that a lower error rate is better than a higher rate, because that gives you a greater margin before failure (i.e. the disk hangs or stutters on playback).

As mentioned, I've noticed in the past that putting a label on a disk would always increase the error rate in the outer portion of the disk. Well, the Taiyo disks with labels were STILL FAR LOWER in PI error rates in that outer region than the Riteks without labels.

So I sit here stunned. The Taiyo Yuden TYG02 disks make a huge difference. Admittedly, I'm drawing these conclusions based on a sample set of only a few disks, but the results are apparently repeatable and I have little doubt they represent something fairly close to the truth. Or at least the truth in my given environment.

Do I try to recall all those hundreds of Riteks? Even if I could (I can't), it's still true that they work in most cases. It's just that the margin for failure is much narrower than that apparently provided by the TYG02 disks.

Comments

Coursedesign wrote on 3/1/2006, 5:56 PM

I switched to Taiyo Yuden also, big improvement in several areas.

Riteks aren't bad, but TY is better currently (if they're real at least).

johnmeyer wrote on 3/1/2006, 6:21 PM

Which Ritek were you using? I have been doing these test for some time, and recommending to all that will listen that they should do them as well. It is the only scientific way to discover the difference between media.

My conclusion mirrors yours, namely that the Taiyo Yuden that I'm using are head and shoulders better than anything else I have tried. However, my old 2x Maxells still test almost as good, and the Ritek G04s were quite good as well. I have never purchased Ritek G05, because there were just too many negative posts from people that actually seemed to know what they were talking about.

Congratulations on your tests, and thank you for sharing them with all of us. I greatly admire people that take the time to do these things, because it really helps the rest of us.

PeterWright wrote on 3/1/2006, 6:22 PM

Interesting Richard - I'm surprised you're still sticking labels on though - the printables look great here ( I guess I prefer the matte look to gloss.)

I've been using Ritek G05 8x now that G04s can't be got, but I always burn at 4x and so far no rejects.

farss wrote on 3/1/2006, 7:37 PM

The other test worth doing is repeating these tests over time. The time to really get worried about media is when the error rates go up as the media ages.
Some media returns quite high error rates when new but the error rate hardly budges over 12 months. Cheaper media returns a lower inital error rate but climbs over 12 months.

One of the benchmarks for good media is jitter but as far as I can tell you need expensive hardware to measure it.

Bob.

riredale wrote on 3/1/2006, 7:46 PM

Peter:

I know, I'm probably the last person on this board to use adhesive labels. As soon as I can get a TYG02 with a gloss white surface, I'll be delighted to use them.

Farss:

Yeah, I'm cataloging these disks along with their printouts, so I can see what changes take place. The first thing I'm going to do is store a couple of them in DVD cases. The reason is because the cases lock the disks on the center hub, and when new the cases kinda "pull in" the disks at the hub connection a bit. It's not a lot of force, but I'm curious to see if there is any negative effect on disk readability. I don't think there will be, since the force is not that much and it goes away after a while, plus the disks don't seem to have any memory.

Laurence wrote on 3/1/2006, 9:23 PM

It's expensive, but an Accent disc laminator gives discs a glossy waterproof finish. I bit the bullet a year and a half ago and bought one. I use it on every disc I send out.

DGates wrote on 3/1/2006, 9:55 PM

First off, you shouldn't be using labels, period. All the disc makers say not to.

Second, given the good buzz about TY's, I'm surprised they're not available from more reputable resellers. Isn't Super Media Store just another Meritline company? Meritline's quality, whether it's discs or cases, is awful.

GaryKleiner wrote on 3/1/2006, 10:19 PM

I have been using Taiyo Yuden discs for a while and am happy with them. I get them from shop4tech.com because of good prices and service. Once you start buying from them, they email you about 10% off sales which they have every month or two.

Gary

johnmeyer wrote on 3/1/2006, 10:25 PM

Isn't Super Media Store just another Meritline company? Meritline's quality, whether it's discs or cases, is awful.

DGates,

I have bought a lot of stuff from Meritline and have been happy with their media, and with their service. However, I am a nut about wanting to get the best. Where do you buy your media and is the media itself better than what you can get at Meritline?

DGates wrote on 3/1/2006, 11:02 PM

I haven't gotten media from them in at least 2 years. It was their own cheap-*ss brand. I'd say over 50% would end up as coasters. I just buy TDK, Sony or Verbatim from regular retailers.

If anyone's ever ordered their DVD cases, they'd know what I was talking about in regards to quality. You'd end up being stuck with them because it would cost too much to send them back for a refund.

douglas_clark wrote on 3/2/2006, 1:30 AM

Are the Taiyo Yuden DVDs sold under the name Taiyo Yuden, and/or are they sold under other brand names?

I have been spraying ink-jet printed CDs with "Colour Protection Spray" from mediecentralen.com (Sweden) with good results. Protects printing from fingerprints etc., and gives semi-gloss finish (once you get the knack of spraying evenly).

Guy S. wrote on 3/2/2006, 8:22 AM

We recently switched to TYG02 disks and failure rate went from 3% to 0.5%.

Our distributor (Garwin & Chan) explained that many companies outsource their media manufacturing and therefore can't control quality from batch to batch. Taiyo Yuden, OTOH, manufactures everything themselves.

Laurence wrote on 3/2/2006, 8:24 AM

I just switched TY from Ritek as well. Where I notice the difference is towards the end of a DVD where the Riteks are more likely to skip and have errors..

riredale wrote on 3/2/2006, 8:55 AM

I had a chance this morning to track down this issue of fake DVDs. Using Google I got this address (if you try "www.taiyoyuden.com" you get a scam site). That gave me their U.S. offices, and after a few phone calls I got the U.S. distributor. Turns out www.meritline.com and www.supermediastore.com are two of the bigger sellers of the genuine article.

You can get these things for about $0.35-$0.40 each (including shipping) in quantities of 100, with plain or white tops.

Really, download and try the new Nero "CD-DVD Speed" utility and go to the "Disk Quality" tab. Even scanning at maximum speed, you'll quickly get a sense of burn quality. In fact, there's a "Quality Score" in the lower-right-hand corner that apparently looks at several factors as the scan progresses. Neat.

RBartlett wrote on 3/2/2006, 9:13 AM

It is my opinion that Jjapanese manufactured/lab brands are remarkable. If they are authentic stock, they serve very well. TY, despite the "trade pack" market positioning - is a jewel in the always <100% DVDR arena.

Panasonic have retail packs that have TYG02 process.

Mitsui, MAM-E (Mitsui or the French lab)
Also medical grade discs (e.g. Verbatim) seem to have good retention and scuff resistance. However I've gone off Verbatim since having RitekG05 type issues with >8x rated media.

If you are archiving, always write to more than one type of media. You never know and this reduces the risk if you rely on these optical "spinners".

craftech wrote on 3/2/2006, 9:30 AM

You like TYG02? Remember how reliable TYG01 was? And how reliable MXL RG02 was? And how reliable Ritek G04 was? All were 4X media and all are unavailable.

It won't be long before you will be saying, "Remember how reliable TYG02 was?"

Let's face it, our needs aren't even considered when it comes to recordable DVD media. The media is geared toward people who copy movies. In that scheme of things "faster is better". Just read the posts by the people buying the media:

"Dude, I ordered 8X media and scored 16X media.......duh huh huh huh".

"Dude, this CompUsa media is awesome, it says 8X and I burned it at 12X.........duh huh huh huh".

John

DavidMcKnight wrote on 3/2/2006, 9:39 AM

Not quite on topic, but related to Ritek/Meritline

Ordered 100 Ritek 8x G05 printables from Meritline in mid December. Just finished the last of my previous stock and broke into these. Luckily they were delivered on two 50-packs, because one of the 50-packs is almost completely unusable. Looks like some glue residue got stuck to the outside of the stack and then heat was applied. The face and label of almost every disk is smeared in a thin layer of goo.

I called Meritline about it, and they gave me an rma number to return them for replacement. They'll send back to ritek for credit, but I thought that was pretty good service for an order placed 2.5 months ago.

(Maybe I can get them to substitue TY this time...)

busterkeaton wrote on 3/2/2006, 10:00 AM

If you ever run out of reliable media, you can get this at BestBuy. But you have to check, some of the fujifilms are made in Taiwan and some made in Japan.

In my experience the made in Japana have always been Taiyo Yuden.

RalphM wrote on 3/2/2006, 10:13 AM

Regarding the smearing problem for ink jet printed discs - I got an email from Primera that they were introducing a line of printable media that is smear resistant.

I have not yet tried them - has anyone else?

RalphM

DGates wrote on 3/2/2006, 1:24 PM

Ralph: "I got an email from Primera that they were introducing a line of printable media that is smear resistant. "

I saw this too. But from what I heard, they're Imation brand. How far off the radar is Imation, in regards to whether they're good or bad? I don't know anyone who uses them, so it's hard to know.

craftech wrote on 3/2/2006, 4:58 PM

I saw this too. But from what I heard, they're Imation brand. How far off the radar is Imation, in regards to whether they're good or bad? I don't know anyone who uses them, so it's hard to know.
===========
Could be almost anyone they struck up a deal with and that can change in a heartbeat. Like I said, we aren't the market.

"Dude, check it out....Primera has these totally cool printable DVD discs that won't smear when you spill beer on them, but they cost some serious bucks". "Yeah....gonna have to rip a whole lot of Netflix this month to pay for that...duh huh huh huh huh huh!"

John

riredale wrote on 3/4/2006, 7:13 PM

It just keeps getting better. With the Taiyo Yuden 8x DVD-R media, my NEC 3550A burner says it can burn at 12x, which means a full disk in about 7 minutes (my old Pioneer 107 with Ritek G05 took about 8:30).

Running the disk burned at 12x through Nero's CD/DVD Speed and doing a quality test, I get a stunningly good graph, and a quality score of 99.

How can the various DVD brands be so different? Does Taiyo Yuden know something Ritek doesn't?

TheDingo wrote on 3/7/2006, 9:28 AM

Using the same Plextor PI/PO test, I've had great burns from:

Taiyo Yuden discs
Verbatim discs

...But my new favorite is BenQ 16x discs, which are cheap with amazing
quality. Using a Pioneer DVR-110 burner, I can get a perfect 16x burn with
the BenQ DVD+R media in about 6 minutes. The error rate tests as low
as the Taiyo Yuden media does.

NOTE: You may need to upgrade your burner's firmware to use the
BenQ 16x media, as old firmware won't recognise it properly.
I'm using firmware 1.39 with my Pioneer DVR-110 drive.