OT - Ultra2, Codecs, and Poor Techsupport

Jim H wrote on 1/5/2007, 7:51 PM
I hate to drag my other product related questions in here, but I seem to be lacking a fundimental understanding of codecs that could be considered of general interest so here goes.

I'm taking raw M2T files from my Sony HD camera and loading them into Utlra for keying. The keys look fantastic in Ultra when I combine them with the background while still in Ultra. BUT I have two problems.
1. The audio is hosed the second I load the M2T file into Ultra and needs to be manually realigned in Vegas.
2. When I save the file as a 32bit keyed source with alpha channel all of a sudden the key sucks and the subjects pick up a white border or glow...same settings.

So when I asked for technical support from Serious Magic, they said that ULTRA2 does not come with any MPEG2 codecs, rather it loads the ones available from Windows which aren't always meant for professional editing. They suggest I download and try a trial version of Elecard's MPEG2 codec at Elcard.com. (I don't even know what to download)

My question is, did Vegas not come with codecs in order for it to do its job? How can Ultra2 claim to work if it doesn't come with the tools it needs? Wouldn't one think the Vegas codec (Cineform?) would be good enough?

I also don't understand the relationship between "direct show" and codecs like cineform or elecard... are these types of "direct show" codecs? How can one tell which codecs they have? I seem to have plenty of choices in the drop down menus....

Anyone else using Ultra2? What's the workflow?

I've tried to ask these questions of the Adobe Serious Magic guys but they twice just asked me if I tried the elecard codec... It's been two weeks and I can't get them to reply to my phone calls or email. And their forum is dead.... not like our wonderful Vegas community.

Comments

farss wrote on 1/5/2007, 8:49 PM
For starters I don't think Vegas shares its codecs. So the m2t codec that comes with Vegas wouldn't be available to Ultra 2. Therefore who knows what it's using to decode the m2t file which might explain the audio offset. This isn't hopefully such a big deal though if you can keep the original audio in Vegas and just drop the new vision over the top.

Regardling 2) How are you viewing this?
If in Vegas do you have the right alpha channel properties set in the media?

I could find the Elcard codec pretty quickly under Products, I think it comes with the viewer.

fldave wrote on 1/5/2007, 8:53 PM
Not an Ultra2 user, but I think I can shed some light on a few items.

DirectShow is a low level windows utility for video file processing, newer than the old Video For Windows (VFW) that Vegas is based on. DirectShow and VFW both interact with the codecs you have installed in your system.

Ultra2 should be able to output something other than mpeg2 for further processing in Vegas. What you may be seeing is double encoding to mpeg2, so you need to look at outputing avi: uncompressed/HuffYUV lossless compressing, or minimally compressed like Sony YUV. Or doesn't Ultra2 output individual frame files that Vegas can import as avi?
JohnnyRoy wrote on 1/6/2007, 8:29 AM
I could never get M2T files to work with Ultra 2. I use the CineForm codec for my Ultra 2 work but I have Connect HD which allows me to use CineForm outside of Vegas. If I remember correctly, the CineForm codec that ships with Vegas has a check in it by CineForm and if Vegas isn't the host application it will not work. This is not Sony's doing, it's just that the CineForm licensing agreement only covers Vegas. I agree that all this codec hiding makes it a lot harder to get your job down with the tools that you purchased to do them.

Your best bet (besides using uncompressed) would be to use the HuffYUV codec as fldave suggested. I have even used the TechSmith codec from Camtasia with excellent results.

~jr
Jim H wrote on 1/6/2007, 9:56 AM
Wow, good responses.

OK, I'm starting to get a bit better picture of the codec mess. Makes sense now hearing that the Cineform isn't shared by vegas. So what codec IS Ultra using? How how is this determined?

Since the last time I used Ultra I changed my default m2t media player from Nero to VLC. After that, M2t files wouldn't open in Ultra - I would get a white box and no sound. I download the Elecard's MPEG2 and I get a white block and multiple bizarre streams of the audio. I uninstalled Elecard MPEG Player and now I'm back to the white box and no sound.

So I'm thinking that Ultra is using the default media players codec for M2t files? I guess I could change my default player back to Nero to see if Ultra works again (badly synced audio notwithstanding).

Is this how it works? If so I'll take as fact that Ultra does not like M2T files even Elecard's MPEG2 codec (Johnny did you ever try this Elecard's MPEG2 codec?).

That means the workflow for Ultra MUST start with Vegas (Hey, we're back ON Topic). So I'll load my M2T file (copy#1) into Vegas, crop them to the parts I want key'd, then render to new track (copy #2)? What format & settings exactly? Then once done in Ultra, render back to uncompressed 32bit with alpha (copy#3)? What file format and settings exactly? (getting OT again). Because now only the choices offered by Ultra's dialog. The only way to get an alpha channel is to save as uncompressed 32bit avi. That's OK, but I'm getting this white fringe or halo. I've tried every option in Vegas for the alpha channel, dirty works best, but the halo is there.

I have not tried image sequences, how much less efficient are these diskspace-wise? and is there a better chance the apha channel will be clean? I guess this is an experiment for later.

Thanks for the help guys, I know there are lots of hard to explain (and understand) concepts here, but if you'll try to explain (spoon feed) the codec and format things to me, eventually I'll get it....