"One, what is your time worth. Two, if you bid too low, you're hurting others who work in the industry if by chance the church wants to bid out future jobs to multiple producers."

This might make me sound like a jerk, but I could personally care less if other producers get hurt sales wise. We work in a cutthroat business and money talks and so does cheaper prices. I seriously doubt other producers stop and think about their competition when charging for a job unless its to undercut their costs.

This is common in all forms of business whether it be banks and their competitive interest rates or Walmart and their lower prices competing with Targets, Kohl's etc...

Whats the client willing to offer for the project? You might find that they are willing to pay more than you would have asked for and then you make more cash.

Mike,

Thanks for the excellent reply. We've actually done the work and I'm sure it was way below what a "real" person would charge and that's why I'm asking. We're a two-person video team that got stuck not only doing those 4 presentations but also a bunch of other sessions at a three-day conference two months ago.

In the last two months, we've produced DVDs for 10 general session speakers, 4 workshop sessions (the ones I was talking about), and 8 other workshop-type presentations. We've made some 650 DVD copies in that time.

We are members of the church and did this as kind of a "favor" (our normal work is doing creative videos for worship) but now it's coming back to haunt us. The people who want the stuff don't want to pay much and they want it NOW. We've been running hard to get it all done.

So, I'm asking because I would like to have a little leverage in saying, "Ya know, if you had to outsource this project, it would probably be costing you $$$ per session... so, cut us some slack."

It's unfortunate. There's a lot of bad feelings right now.

Steve

"It's unfortunate. There's a lot of bad feelings right now."

Thats a part of business unfortunately. Once someone gets something for a cheaper cost, they ALWAYS expect that cost and when they dont get it, there are hard feelings. I would explain to them that you gave it to them for less as a favor and that this is your normal rate and if thy dont like it, let them find someone else. It would be foolish to work for little to no profit unless all you care about is the experience.

This might make me sound like a jerk, but I could personally care less if other producers get hurt sales wise. We work in a cutthroat business and money talks and so does cheaper prices. I seriously doubt other producers stop and think about their competition when charging for a job unless its to undercut their costs.

With all due respect Patrick, That type of think can devalue what we all do.
Sure there is nothing wrong with a little competition. But my time is also valueble, I won't whore my self out just because Joe Shmoe will do it cheaper. I have an investment in my equipment and my time and I will not lower my rate because some video hack will do it for next to nothing.
Besides the client will most definately get what he paid for. Your work should speak for itself.
Good work is not cheap and cheap work is not good.
Jimmy

With all due respect, just because someone can do it for cheaper doesnt mean it isnt as good of quality as it would be with higher prices. What it comes down to is what is your time worth to you? If you do a 100 hour job for $500 and you are ok with it, so be it and screw the guy next door who feels the same job is worth $2000. Sadly, the guy who charged $500 will get to eat the following week.

It does not devalue what we do. That has to be the biggest excuse I have always heard for "undercharging" clients. Ultimately, clients WILL dictate your prices. If no one will pay $1000 for a 25 hour job, then you WILL LOWER your prices or find a new line of work.

The old addage "you get what you pay for" is long gone. I can crank out corporate web sites like theres no tomorrow and charge way less than some schmo that takes twice as long to complete and charges $500 more.

The people that devalue what we do are those who charge less and do a crappy job and pass it off as industry standard work.

What it comes down to is I want to eat and feed my family. And if cutting Next Door Joe's legs out from under him while providing the same or better quality, then poor Joe. He can starve or he can adapt. Survivial of the fittest is what its all about.

The following isn't meant to be anti-religious, in fact I'm rather religious and have a strong faith, but have little use for organized religion, ie "professional" churches. Proceed if you want to learn why, otherwise stop right here. You were warned.

It has been my experience that SOME church groups play their members for fools every chance they get. My father learned his lesson. In the 50's 60's we lived in a apartment building right across the street from our church. My father was doing "favors" almost daily after work and on the weekends the "church" acted as if they owned him. Hey George, can you help clean out the gutters? Hey, you got a few hours to help patch the roof? Nobody wants to clean off the pigeon poop, can you do it? Hey, want to help paint the basement, can you go here, do that, do this, blah, blah, all on top of him already being a usher, an elder, helped count the take every week... oops, the Sunday collection, was member of the men's club, choir, dartball league, bowling league, softball league, etc, etc, etc.

Now you would think everybody in our "church" hierarchy loved my dad because of all he done for the church, and always a freebie by the way. He rarely got a thank you. But the phone never stopped ringing when they wanted something. Of course they always did want something more but odd, it was a one way street.

When my father's brother got seriously ill and he too lived just across the street from the church, did our minister or any of the assistant ministers come visit after he was out of the hospital? No, the excuse they all used was they were all busy elsewhere. Same when my mother got ill, Sorry, come across the street, why no, too far away I guess.

When I got hit by a car on my way home from school and another time when I was rushed back to the hospital due to a massive hemmorage caused by a botched tonsils surgery and the doctors told my mother still sitting in the hall in her blood soaked dress, maybe I had a hour to live and would die for sure if they couldn't stop the hemmoraging, did our minister rush to the hospital? No, neither did anybody else from "our" church visit or even bother to phone.

Well, my parents managed to save up enough to buy a home. It was located some distance from the church and not having a car it was a mile walk to the nearest bus stop and service was spotty at best on Sundays. So for the first couple months neither my father or my mother or I went to church services.

We got a letter from the church about six weeks later. Basically it said we understand its difficult to come to services, but hey, when are you going to get caught up with your contributions, our records show you're past due by several weeks. Needless to say, my father and mother were very upset for our "church" to be so callous and money grubbing. No, we never went back to that "church" and on Good Fridays especially I remember alright.

My advice, treat the "church" just like any other client. Neither better or worse, otherwise you can, actually probablly will get taken advantage of...over and over again if they can manage it and I bet they will try.

I couldnt agree more. I once had a gig with a church who said I was doing the lord's work and that I could consider my service as a contribution. I flat out told him sorry jack, you dont work for free and neither do I. We got in a heated discussion about how he doesnt make that much as I walked him to his car. Wouldnt you know it, he climbed into his BMW right after a sermon about how we all should not covet worldy things. Not all are like that but I am willing to bet some just use the faith to take and take in the name of God.

"Once someone gets something for a cheaper cost, they ALWAYS expect that cost and when they dont get it, there are hard feelings."

This was my original point, perhaps not stated clearly enough. I know competition will drive cost however it does hurt people in the long run. It will come back to bite you in the end eventually whether it's someone else getting the work or you having to bid so low it's not worth the time but you want the business. Prostitution in my eyes.

Sure companies want to take advantage of a deal. That's commerce. However lowballing just to get work is a different story. I've turned down thousands of dollars in business because I won't work for less than I feel I am worth. My loss or theirs. It's a matter of perspective.

Steve,

You are a "real" guy. Perhaps you charged less than you should have and you're seeing the effects of it. Don't think that it doesn't put you in the ballpark of the real guys though. We're all real guys if we're making money at this.

It does suck though when the client loves the work and comes back expecting the same price.

Mike

Doing something on the "cheap" as a favor is a mistake most of us made.

Way back, I sold my first laser printer over Compserve to a total stranger. The guy loved it so much he started calling me on a regular basis just to shoot the breeze and we became sort of long distance friends. One day he calls and asks hey Bill, can you set me up with a web site? I don't want nothing fancy, you know, just a "simple" nothing fancy, basic little web site for my business. On hearing those kind of words regardless what type of work you do you should head for the nearest exit as fast as you can. But, he was a "friend", so you ignore that little voice you hear in your head that says don't start down this bumpy road.

Mistake One. Don't talk price. Remember, he wanted "nothing fancy" so I'm thinking ok, couple hours tops, he can buy dinner next time I see him. I drop him an email a week or so later, say the site is finished. He calls, says he loves it. We start talking about other things. Next day, he calls again. Can you make just a couple "minor" changes?

Mistake Two: Sure, why not, he's a "friend", I'll make a "couple changes". I say Tom, I normally charge X for this. I don't even get to finish the sentence. He reminds me "he don't want much, just a "little" web site. That's all. He's probably pulling down close to seven figures in his business. I agree for a few hundred bucks (a fraction of what the work was worth) to do what he wanted. Call me chump. I'm bending over, somebody kick me!

Everything seemed fine, till the next weekend. Tom calls again, starts out with he's been thinking. Time he's done, he's "thinking" his original "little web site" would be so much better if I would just add a shopping cart feature and oh by the way can you change the image on page such and such, and oh the colors should be different on this page and oh can you design me a new logo?

I don't know if Tom ever got all the web site features he wanted, but didn't want to pay for, I didn't do it. I finally woke up and realized I was being used. If only I would have realized it at the start.

Interesting BB, My best friend has duplcation business and said he deals with a good amount of churches and that they have the most deliquent accounts. Go figure!
Jimmy

BB an Pmasters,

I'm sorry you both had bad church experiences. Our church isn't like that. When my brother was killed 3 years ago, people (both Pastors and lay people) came out in droves to help us. When my wife was deathly ill, people came all the time. We truly love our church. And that's what's especially painful about what's going on. I also realize that it's "people" that's the problem, not "church".

That said, I think you all have good points about establishing more of a "formal" client relationship with a church. And I think that's where we went wrong. Originally, it started with "can you tape this seminar and make us 5 copies of a DVD." Sure, no problem. But then I guess you could say we became victims of our own success. Suddenly, they had a great demand for our DVDs, and then they wanted us to shoot more seminars. Ahhh, sure, no problem. But all of sudden we have to tape EVERY seminar and they need 25 copies this week, oops, we sold out of them, we need 25 more copies, and more of this one, and we promised people they could have it... you get the picture.

So, something that started out pretty much as "we're doing this project to help out our church and it's okay if we don't charge much for it because it's just this one-time" turned into a nightmare. And we are entirely to blame by not properly setting expectations or by pricing the job high enough to make it clear that you want FAST and you want GOOD it's going to cost.

So, that's why, in hindsight, I'm looking at WHAT should have happened and HOW we should have priced it.

Thanks for the comments.

Yeah thats a tough situation to be in. I dont do business with my church at all. If one does they feel obligated. Maybe just keep it on a small level.
Jimmy

Quality, Time or Money... pick any two :)

Amen !

Here's an explanation of the equation.

This being WAY OT from the forum aside - I know better than anyone that churches can be very gimmie gimmie gimmie - what you want something - you need to feed a family - but this is for the Lord. Now this is, IMO, because so many people are willing to help, and want to do things for the Lord. This - however does no favors to those that would make a living doing work for churches etc... When I ever get a church that wants something like that I point them to the scriptures where it says, "a man is worthy of his hire." There response will usually tell me what kind of church they are. Sadly there are lots of churches like BB's was. It's human nature to try and get the best for less (or nothing) - especially for pastors, as they are experts at it. I lose respect for Church leaders that are not willing to pay a man what he's worth. It's up to me to decide if I want to charge them less than that as a "favor" or whatnot.

BB - I'm sorry to hear that you had such a money money church as you were growing up - but it's not always good to put everyone in the same boat, just because you were put off by one of the passengers - so to speak. (I'm not trying to tell you what's what here, just a freindly reminder ;-)

All that being said - how many people here, who feel like they have little or no money to spare because of goals etc... turn down free work??? hmmmmmm? or cheap work at that. just a thought :)

Dave