OT: XLR Audio Adapter Question

Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/30/2008, 9:34 AM
I'm finally looking at upgrading my audio gear.

I currently work with a pair of SONY HC7's which have 1/8" mini mic jacks. I have my Sennheiser Evolution G2 wireless lav kit in transit. But now I need to address the issue of upgrading my shotgun mic from my small, basic Azden SMX-10 to something better.

I'm considering one of two options.

Option 1 is to go with the Ambient Recordings TinyMike with the mini jack option since it's mic jack is native mini and allows for direct connection and doesn't need phantom power to operate and is very compact. I can add XLR capability later on if/when I move up to a better camera.

Option 2 is going with an XLR based mic - I like the small size and reviews of the Audio-Technica AT875 kit from B&H. Since the mic isn't powered from the camera, I have to look at an XLR adapter to fit underneath the camera. My question is why are there XLR adapters that don't have phantom power, yet many mics require phantom power to work? It seems kind of superfluous to put an XLR adapter on the market that doesn't provide phantom power.

I'm inexperienced in the audio side of things and I hope I can get some clarification on this.

Can the Audio-Technica AT875 be used with the Beachtek DXA-2S or DXA-4 Audio Adapter with my HC7's or am I going to have to get a phantom powered XLR adapter?

If I have to go with a phantom powered adapter - option 1 wins on cost compared to Option 2

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com

Comments

Steven Myers wrote on 6/30/2008, 9:51 AM
why are there XLR adapters that don't have phantom power

The 3.5mm plugs and jacks are fragile.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/30/2008, 10:24 AM
My question didn't get answered - why are there non-phantom powered adapters if the vast majority of XLR mics are not self powered and can the AT875 be used with a non-phantom powered adapter?

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com
TheHappyFriar wrote on 6/30/2008, 10:28 AM
like he said, and like you said: many (not ALL) XLR's need phantom power. The only XLR's I've used are self powered with AA's so I don't know why you'd NEED an adapter with phantom power.
Kennymusicman wrote on 6/30/2008, 10:49 AM
XLR is the standard connector for microphones. However, there are 2 major types of microphones - condensor, and dynamic. (there are others but ignore that for now). Condensors need power. Phantom is a nice way for this. Dynamics don't. Therefore many mics really don't need phantom power.
Secondly, providing phantom power means an additional drain of energy from the source, such as the camera = less battery life.

The why's and wherefores can be argued till the sun goes down, comes back up, and goes down again..
Chienworks wrote on 6/30/2008, 11:20 AM
For that matter, XLR connectors are generally used for balanced mic connections whether they also carry phantom power or not. Phantom power can be fed over any mic connection, even 2 conductors. Balanced connections can also be made with 3 conductor mini plugs. So, XLR isn't required for either balancing or phantom power (both electrical requirements), but is indeed used because it is much sturdier and more reliable than other types of plugs.

One sound booth i worked in for a while had a microphone patch bay between the snakes and the mixer. It was all balanced and phantom powered, but the patch cables and jacks were all 1/4" 3 conductor plugs. Why do this if XLR is more reliable? Because of size. A 19" rack mount patch bay made out of XLR connectors can only have 16 across each row. With 1/4" plugs with a narrow enough housing 32 can fit easily. Also, since the patch cables were in a protected environment and rarely got moved around, the extra reliability wasn't that important.
farss wrote on 6/30/2008, 12:09 PM
I think your question is already partially answered but a few points not mentioned.
Not everything that you'd plug into a camera is a microphone, not uncommon to take feeds from external mixers at line level.
As said not all mics need phantom power, some quite good condensor and shotgun mics can be powered from their own batteries.
I'd also add my voice to those telling you to get away from audio going though those horrid 3.5mm jacks. The biggest advantage of the XLR connectors is reliability.

Bob.
Laurence wrote on 6/30/2008, 12:58 PM
Studio1Productions.com sell an XLR adapter that clips onto your belt instead of screwing in under the camera. I personally prefer that approach on the smaller cameras:

http://studio1productions.com/xlr-bp_pro.htm
Jeff9329 wrote on 6/30/2008, 1:09 PM
Basic XLR info:
If you are going to use an XLR shotgun mic on camera, just get a $10 balanced to unbalanced adapter. The mic will have to be self powered in this case. For a super short wire run of an onboard mic, you don't need the balancing transformer like the Beachtek unit has, although it does give you a two channel mixing capability.

And don't forget that many 1/8 - 3.5mm plug mics require power too. Usually it's onboard (battery) power though, but not always.

Need a SGM-X? I will hook you up cheap.

Cheno wrote on 6/30/2008, 1:18 PM
I second the Studio1 Productions XLR adapter - at the time I had my last one (late 90's) it was much preferred over and less noisy than the Beachtek. I'm looking at another one for my HF100

cheno
Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/30/2008, 1:51 PM
The challenge I'm running into is either:

Phantom powered mics require a phantom powered XLR adapter = $$$ on top of a good mic

or

A battery powered mic is over a foot long, totally overwhelming the camera and more times than not - intruding into the frame when used on camera.

Hence my looking at the Ambient Recordings TinyMike. My only concern is no one seems to have heard of them here in the states, yet they seem to be somewhat well known in Europe proper since they are a German company. The only review I have read on the mic compares it as being equal to the Sennheiser MK6/ME66 shotgun mic - with the TinyMike being a total of 6" in length.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com
farss wrote on 6/30/2008, 2:01 PM
Sennheiser now do a "tiny mic", the MKE400:
http://www.sennheiser.com/nordic/icm_eng.nsf/root/products_microphones_spezialel_502047

Ours seems to work OK and it's self powered by 1x AAA battery that last a long time.

Bob.
Jeff9329 wrote on 6/30/2008, 2:11 PM
There are tons of phantom power adapters available.

http://www.sweetwater.com/c959--Phantom_Power

Then you need the $10 cable, $60 total to get to your 1/8" jack.

Will your next cameras have XLR? If so, think more about XLR/phantom now.

Also, you are going to need the same cable for the wireless as the mic if you are recording it onboard. Wireless recievers usually output via XLR.

Did you look at this kit? It seems close to what you want and is future proof.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/481530-REG/Sennheiser__ME66_K6_Super_Cardioid_Short.html
Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/30/2008, 2:58 PM
Jeff - TBH - I'm not sure what my next camera is going to be - right now I'm more concerned about the physical size of the gear I carry. Hence my questions surrounding the TinyMike.

My ideal mic currently would be along the lines of the Azden SGM-PDII, but wouldn't need phantom power.

So what is the difference between a directional stereo microphone, or Dual Unidirectional, and a Cardioid microphone???

As you can probably tell, I'm a n00b when it comes to the audio end of shooting video.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com
Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/30/2008, 3:36 PM
Bob - I've considered the MKE400, but I've seen and heard a video review and it came out as being thin sounding - if that can be used to describe it - my SMX-10 has a more full sound to it from what I can tell - but I have nothing to compare that against for the higher priced mics.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com
Jeff9329 wrote on 7/1/2008, 8:57 AM
I wonder if the new NTG-3 mic is phantom power only?

It's only 10" long and seems to be the best/newest shotgun available.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/1/2008, 10:40 AM
I spoke with Sebastian Fell at Ambient Recordings in Germany earlier this morning - he was very helpful in answering the questions and concerns I had regarding the TinyMike and with audio in general for audio.

One unique feature is that the TinyMike can be upgraded to XLR via a user swapped out cable running from the mic to the camera - in addition, it is non-phantom powered. Add in their TinyMix and you can then get balanced audio on both channels and the thing is very small.

I placed my order from Gotham Sound in New York - They are only one of two companies here in the states I could find carrying the Ambient Recording Line. Once I receive my TinyMike, I'm going to test it out and write a review on solovj.com - this mic could be the best solution for shooters like myself needing a small compact high quality shotgun mic when working as a one person production crew.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com
Guy S. wrote on 7/1/2008, 11:42 AM
I purchased a DXA-2S to use with my AT 835a, but the sound was completely unusable -- low output, full of hiss. I returned the unit. I found a relatively new company that offers an adapter for about the same price as the Beachtek unit, but unlike the Beacktek units it has a very high quality mic preamp -- far better than what's in your camera.

If you go to juicedlink.com you can find comparison videos between their products and Beachtek.

I am also interested in the TinyMic, but haven't seen any reviews. Chances are they are using a choir mic, which could work quite well if the working distance is reasonable. I recently recorded a folk singer with an inexpensive AT cardioid (directional) lavaliere mic. It bested every other mic in my kit by far -- shotgun included -- so I know a small mic can get the job done (my working distance was ~4' - 5' from the performer). If you buy one, please post some samples!

AT mics are hard to beat for overall value, so the 875 would be a good choice for a shotgun. If you're looking for a bit higher end solution, I would consider an AKG. They offer one in the $500 range that sounds amazing -- warm, present, and full; by far the best I heard at NAB.
Tinle wrote on 7/1/2008, 3:21 PM
The AT 897 shtogun has a good reputation. It can be operated with a single AA battery for a very long time or can use phantom power. Shure's A96 F unit takes care of going from xlr to mini.

Similarly, the AT 899 lavalier also can uses single AA battery or can use phantom.
craftech wrote on 7/2/2008, 1:00 AM
Cliff,
At around 8.8 inches the Rode VideoMic for $149 has had very good reviews, including reviews by forum members Douglas Spotted Eagle and Guy Bruner. It has a shockmount and takes a 9 volt battery.
Guy also reviewed the AT 897.

John