OTHorrid 60Hz Hum, Strat / Marshall / Fuzz HELP!

TGS wrote on 1/29/2008, 2:25 AM
As any Strat / Marshall guitarist knows, that combination is bad enough even in good conditions
Well, I've just discovered my home has this problem so bad, that if using Distortion or a Fuzz. I may be able to drown out the 60Hz buzz for about 2 seconds, then it rings through just as loud as the guitar.
I have to assume it's the transformer on the telephone pole in the front yard. I can't think of anything else that is causing this as I've shut everything else off except the amp and it's still the same.
I can't find a good place to stand that is good enough, plus I could never hold the position I"d have to attain without scaffolding.
I've been reading up on "Power Conditioners" but a lot of information is just missing. None of these "Hum reducers" address magnetic fields in a way that can convince me that they would help my problem. They've convinced me that they do provide pure, noiseless power.... but what about the magnetic field and single coil pick-ups combined with Distortion and a Marshall tube amp?
I don't notice any noise otherwise, (recording other instruments) but it's destroying my ability to do what I want on guitar.
I don't expect miracles, but I can deal with the normal noise this combination makes and I'd be happy to just get that normal buzz.
If anybody has tried and proven to themselves that there is something that will eliminate this problem.....PLEASE give me a clue. I don't mean from reading articles about it, I mean from 1st hand experience.
I can't tell you how much it sickens me that I may have to spend $1500. on a fancy extension cord.
I'm not about to line the entire house in meshed wire. (or a room or cage)
Just get me to the normal noise and I'll be happy
Thank you in advance....

Comments

Kennymusicman wrote on 1/29/2008, 2:52 AM
2 things spring to mind.

FIrstly, does it happen on all pickup selection positions (1,2,3,4,5)? OR is it better on 2 & 4.

Option 2, and sometimes amazingly sneaky - try a different guitar cable. Look for a shielded cable.

But what you describe it sounds like you may have very microphonic pickups on your strat.? Do you have same problems with another guitar?

Process of elimination.
SChange cable, same guitar. (that elimintates cable)
Change guitar, same/different cable (that eliminates guitar) etc
TGS wrote on 1/29/2008, 3:23 AM
I'm playing a stock American made strat with stock pick-ups, all positions buzz. I've played it for years, but because of volume, never played at home until recently, It works fine most of the time anywhere else. The pick ups are good, non microphonic. Cables are well made.
The only other time I ever had this problem was when I was at somebody elses house and they had VERY big power lines adjacent to their house (230,000 volt type) I also remember a club in Scottsdale Arizona that got that way at show time, when they turned on their lighting system. (sound check goes fine, but when they turn up the lights....forget it)
So the problem appears to be my home and their is no fancy electronics in the nearby neighborhood except the transformer atop the telephone pole in my front yard.
I can take all my present gear to a Bass player, I jam with, house and it's completely normal. As I said, I can deal with the normal noise, I'm not expecting silence. But when this 60 Hz hum cuts through your normal sound, it's disgusting.as it is JUST AS LOUD as my normal guitar signal. It you've played through a loud, tube Marshall, imagine pulling the jack out of your guitar and placing it against the palm of your hand. THAT sound is coming through with my guitar sound and only the initial attack on my pick drowns it out for about 2 seconds. And I am talking about heavy distortion or Fuzz, not a cleaner signal. Also, I can hear a louder than usual Buzz from my Jazz Bass too, but the signal is not fuzzed out and I can deal with that.
This is why I'm hoping for 1st hand experience regarding this problem and hopefully, an inexpensive solution
Kennymusicman wrote on 1/29/2008, 3:29 AM
Is your stuff earthed over that side of the pond? (curiosity)

Also, how much room have you got for moving the amp? - I realise you're pointing it to a likely transformer outside, but is there anything in the room that could also be creating em.interference? (mains splitter or similar). Because I would have thought, that if it was anything guitar related, then positions 2 & 4 would be much better, so I'm wondering if the amp is a little susceptible to em.interence?

[forgot to add - something such as the PSU for the pedals are big noise creators]
TGS wrote on 1/29/2008, 11:36 AM
I have literally shut everything in the house OFF except the amp and I still get the noise. Including shutting off light bulbs, refrigerator, and anything else that turns it self on/off automatically. The house is grounded. and I have personally checked every outlet to make sure. (Thomas Edison happened to live in this country) The amp has been moved through-out the house and there is nothing left to describe for you.
This is why I'm hoping that somebody that has experience with this problem can answer, not give me answers they may have read somewhere or take wild guesses.
Positions 2 & 4 are a tad better, but they are wired in a less noise cancelling way which will give much nicer, fuller tone and is stock wiring.
The Hum intensity changes relative to my stance and how I hold the guitar, but there is no GOOD position, just slightly better.
The amp works like a typical 60's style Marshall, but it is a remake and it has a grounded plug (before you ask) and it works fine almost everywhere. But most Marshalls are probably extra sensitive to em or anything. Plus they naturally distort and probably amplify the noise even more.
But as said before, even the Bass player, playing thru a modern, NON tube amp gets more 60Hz hum than normal, but he can drown his noise out.
I can't come close to doing that except for 2 seconds after a note is plucked
I'm pretty sure the transformer on the telephone pole is the culprit, but I have no way to test it to make sure.
Kennymusicman wrote on 1/29/2008, 12:04 PM
"This is why I'm hoping that somebody that has experience with this problem can answer, not give me answers they may have read somewhere or take wild guesses."

Sorry for trying to help.

TGS wrote on 1/29/2008, 12:41 PM
I actually appreciate the help, but I've been playing these amps since 1969, so I know them well. I don't understand magnetic fields and I can't seem to find anything in print that helps.
I been reading up on Power conditioners that literally change the AC current back to DC then set up a double 1/2 power, AC noise cancelling array that gives you completely noiseless electricity. They insist every recording studio should have one of these. But they don't address problems associated with magnetic fields or do they say this will eliminate the type of hum problems I have, which is very common to the Strat / Marshall / Fuzz combination and certain Electrical set-ups. Even under ideal conditions, this is a noisy combination, but I have a quick hand on my volume control and can control it under normal conditions.

I apologize if I sounded condescending but this problem has literally shut me down and I'm desperate for an inexpensive way or to at least know there is a somewhat reasonable way around this problem. I was hoping that somebody had found the answer from experience and point me the right way, as this is something I've had to put up with every once in a while, in poorly wired clubs. But now in my own house...constantly. I'm going to lose my mind.
Kennymusicman wrote on 1/29/2008, 2:41 PM
Last post from me.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/53243-need-help-nasty-hum.html
[this was my first bit of "reading somewhere"]

There's some nice ideas in there, that aren't obvious. Obvious stuff would be a Faraday cage 'esq idea - but you then go down the route of skin depths and more, and it's a PIA at mains frequencies (big bits of metal required) but may be worth an experiment wrapping around marshall head.

Less obvious is the wiring aspects.


I play strats/les pauls/super strats (I LOVE my Ibanez Jem) through many amps such as marshall, fender and so forth - in studios and on stage. Lighting dimmers were the biggest pain. Got a nice 335clone too, with bigsy trem -
In end, I went to offboard, and only having a monitor on stage. Made life a lot easier. I can get tone onstage, in studio, wherever - and great distortion at quiet levels.

BUt anyhow,

Good luck!
TGS wrote on 1/29/2008, 5:31 PM
Well, I almost could have written that post. Very interesting site
I live just a few miles from the person who posted that.
While my house was not built in 1924, it was built in 1939 and is all 2 conductor wiring
Grounding is done because the two wires are fed through a flexible steel tubing and as soon as you add a grounded outlet, the steel grounds it.
I still don't think it's my old wiring causing the hum. I still suspect it to be the telephone pole transformer that's less than 40 feet from the house.
The funny thing is, nobody seems to know how to fix the problem, which tells me I have a very serious problem. The guy says he called electricians and they never bothered getting back to him. Not a good sign with a potentially expensive job. And nobody suggested a telephone pole transformer at all, which I've heard gives off a huge em field.
The one house I mentioned earlier, with the 230,000 volt lines nearby, was a much more modern home that was probably wired correctly. My guitar acted exactly the same there as it is here.
It sounds like most of the answers given were from reading about the subject more than actually correcting the problem themselves.
It doesn't look good right now, but at least that guy seemed to try Power conditioners and eliminated them as being any help.
Thanks for the link
I may post at the Vegas Video section if no other answers show up soon. This section is not noticed very much. And to think, I thought this problem was going to be solved with someone saying, "Oh yeah, all you need is one of these do-hickeys"
TGS wrote on 1/30/2008, 8:51 PM
Just to put icing on the cake,
I played through a 9v battery operated amplifier and the HUM is just as bad. Guitar to little amp with the amps Overdrive on.
Buzzy Galore.
TGS wrote on 2/3/2008, 12:07 AM
Hey Kenny,
I hope you see this. I think I found a solution. I stumbled upon this while trying to read up on how to get rid of the 60 Hz hum.
http://www.suhrguitars.com/pickups.aspx#bpssc
Go to the bottom of this page and read about the BPSSC System

Then for a demonstration, pretty much my problem, watch this video (only the 1st 3rd pertains to it)
http://www.prosoundcommunications.com/english/video/scott_henderson2/rc_bb.html

Not real cheap at $325. for some simple electronics, but they give 4 weeks to return it, and if it works ..... it's worth it. You never know if you're going to get into one of those clubs with poor wiring. It wont work with a reverse wired middle pickup, that's okay for me, but for those that would like all their pickup positions noiseless, this looks like the way to go.

I'll mull it over for a bit and probably get it. Then I'll report back. If it works,,,,, Spread the word.


I guess this whole area around L.A. buzzes.
Kennymusicman wrote on 2/3/2008, 5:29 AM
I didn't watch the demo link - but it's not a bad idea - the principle is "sound"... IT's akin to the idea of balanced signals - using a pickup out of phase to cancel the noise, and not the string signal... Not a bad idea at all..

If you are into electronics a little, and konw you're way around your guitar wiring and soldering - you could try it with a spare pickup - it should carry the principle over..

If you do get one- let me konw - whilst I don't suffer from the problems any more since I switched to a rack system, it's always interesting to find little solutions to problems.. Good find!

Ken
TGS wrote on 2/6/2008, 5:12 PM
UPDATE:
I couldn't order from the Suhr site and I had problems finding one at any of the dealers listed at the Suhr site. But I finally found one that had it and was only about 15 miles from where I lived. The good new about having to do this is that they were selling it for $259. instead of the suggested list of $325.
It did bring me back to a usuable noise level. It installed very easily and Suhr is making a fortune on what looks like $10. to $20. in parts. My pick ups tone sounds the same, it is still fairly noisy, but I can drown out the noise now. What noise is left is still susceptible to my position and stance, but it's not nearly as overbearing as it was.
Before I installed, I did one last test with the battery operated amplifier. I turned off the power at the fuse box, supplying power to my house and the noise made a noticeable change, but was just as noisy without the AC supplying the wiring in my house. I can't imagine any neighbors having some device capable of causing the EM field, so I have to assume it's the transformer atop the telephone pole.
At this moment, I'm pretty happy. Except I still have a few guitars
Kennymusicman wrote on 2/6/2008, 5:41 PM
Well - I think you've done about anything and everything plausible and reasonable to determine what the EM generator is! I don't konw - but I wonder if perhaps there is some law you could find about the transformer outside creating too much EMR under some health and safety regs??

It would be cool it you were to test the idea of adding in a cheap pickup into the back of the guitar out of phase to simulate what the Suhr is doing... - would love to know the results of that! If it works - it would be way cheaper for you, and good for anyone else who reads this..
farss wrote on 2/6/2008, 5:59 PM
Sorry to come late to the party. I'm no guitarist but have had this problem causing CRTs to start doing the Hulla. Two solutions:

1) Doesn't someone make "Humbucker" pickups. Excuse my ignorance on this point but I'd assume they were made to counter this problem.

2) The problem is almost certainly magnetic induction. Forget electrical shielding, a full blown Faraday cage would achieve nothing. The best material for stopping a magnetic field is Mumetal. It's used to shield the CRT in high end monitors and mic transformers and it's rather expensive. Maybe someone makes pickups with such shielding.

3) If you can't beat 'em, join them, ....out of phase. Really old trick. Back in the days of early valve gear they used hum cancelling circuits. You inject the same signal out of phase to cancel the hum.

Should be simple enough to do. Get another pickup the same as the one in use . Fit it as close as possible to the existing one but not so it picks up the vibration of the strings. Wired in series with the existing pickup the right (or wrong) way around it'll pickup the same hum and cancel out the hum from the main pickup. Some mics use this hum cancelling trick as well. This ONLY works for magnetic interference.

Bob.
Kennymusicman wrote on 2/6/2008, 6:09 PM
NOt bad for a non guitarist - knowing about humbuckers.. :)

They do indeed exist, but tonally they're generally pretty different. Big fat sound, not bright and twangy. You can get humbuckers that are single coil sized, and are claimed to be tonally like single coils..

That was why I asked about position 2 & 4 way back - as these tend to have 2 pickups combined, out of phase for this very purpose of cancelling out noise, and as a tonal difference.
TGS wrote on 2/6/2008, 6:31 PM
I'm not nearly the electrician I wish I were, but it looks like it could be easily copied by somebody with a little know-how. It looks like two tiny potentiometers attached to a tiny board with 6 wires connected to it. 3 of those wires connect to the ground of each pickup. One wire is soldered to the Volume pot. The remaining two go to the Back plate and it looks like there are a few winds of wire looping around the back plate interior and covered.
The two Potentiometers (adjustable by screwdriver) calibrate the amount of 60 Hz noise you remove from all the pickups. The wiring in the backplate (not being able to actually see it, as it's covered) looks more like some simple antenna circling the back plate interior.

I think I'd rather figure out how to copy this than figure out how to hollow out a spot for an extra pickup and then wire it correctly to work with all pickups. Plus wouldn't adding a pickup actually pick up extra noise, like some cheesy reverb from the tremelo springs? lol jk.

I could probably have the interior of my guitar shielded much better, but I don't think it will help much more for this EM type of noise. The pickup pole pieces are exposed and the back plate has a hole in it.

As far as the EM field goes, I probably need to rent or buy some kind of gauss meter to trace the source to make sure of where it emanates from. While looking for information about removing 60Hz noise, I mostly encountered health posts, so don't assume I'm not worried a little about something this country seems to sweep under the rug and laugh off as hearsay.
farss wrote on 2/6/2008, 6:36 PM
One final "out there" thought.
You could just mount another pickup on the back of the guitar and wire it into a mixer along with the normal signal from the guitar. You need to perhaps fiddle with the phase to get cancellation. Worth a try I think. Most guitarists I know have an old pickup or two lying around although one the same as what's used on the guitar would be best. A two channel mixer don't cost much or if the amp has another input that'd do just for testing.

The idea of course is to pickup the exact same unwanted signal and then use that to cancel out the noise from the wanted + unwanted signal. This approach shouldn't in anyway affect the sound of the existing pickups.

Bob.
TGS wrote on 2/6/2008, 6:57 PM
Two more posts while I was answering.
I think the reverse wound, reverse pole middle pickup is something relatively new. I stopped buying guitar magazines a few years ago, so I'm out of the loop on newer developments. It seems common, now that I've been researching.

By the way, you'd have to get a regular non RWRP pickup for the BPSSC to work.

The beautiful tone of a fender pickup is exactly why they still exist to this day. You can't simulate it with a humbucker. Not even the tiny, same size as a single coil, type cut it. Although they do come sort of close.

In hollowing out a spot for an extra pickup, I may change the guitars tonal characteristics slightly, but even if not, I would hurt it's value by doing something irreversible. My guitar will become collectible, more than most models as it is a unique version and was discontinued about 10 years ago.

TGS wrote on 2/7/2008, 2:42 AM
Here's the thing I don't get
I'm sure this thing is just a substitute for a pickup.
But between the two potentiometers, somehow 4 separate wires attach to each pick up and a ground and you have to adjust each potentiometer until the noise is removed from every pick up position as equally as possible

So, it must be more complicated than hooking an extra pick up, out of phase, and having it work with all pick up positions.

Otherwise, I might be able to hook a pick up to a stock back plate, facing out, and cover it with plastic to keep it from making noise from rubbing against my clothing.
Kennymusicman wrote on 2/7/2008, 6:55 AM
"Otherwise, I might be able to hook a pick up to a stock back plate, facing out, and cover it with plastic to keep it from making noise from rubbing against my clothing. "

Yes - that's more like it. - IT'S SO ROCK & ROLL!!!!

lol

I can defintitely see the prupose of 1 pot to alter the balance between the pickup, and the noise-pickup to ensure phase-cancellation.


(will the plastic be necessary? - it's ferrite/metal material that's more of the issue, rather than clothing?)

TGS wrote on 2/7/2008, 12:00 PM
lol

I think my initial thought was my belt buckle, but then I started thinking about my metallic buttons on my jeans, so I just said clothing to cover it all.
Plus my pick ups have staggered poles, so they stick out