PC System for Video Editing with Vegas 5

Phil H wrote on 3/15/2005, 8:49 PM

Hi guys.

This is my first post on these forums. I know a bit about computers, but not about video editing. My father is quite into video editing; however he is not really a computer user. He used to work with film, and linear editing. Then, in about 1998, he got a DraCo NLE workstation, which was powerful at the time, but as you can imagine is totally outdated now.

Now the time has come to upgrade! I will be building a PC based computer system for him from scratch. While I could easily spec out a decent gaming machine, I am not so familiar with the requirements for a video editing computer.

Footage is recorded with a fairly high-end Sony consumer camera that uses DV tape. The goal is to be able to import the video footage to the computer, edit it, and burn to DVD. He may also wish to export the final video back to DV tape for backup purposes. In the near future, he intends to purchase a widescreen HDV camera soon, to allow HDV editing.

For software we are going to go with a Sonic Foundry Vegas 5 + DVD (which will run on Windows XP Pro SP2). This is because it got good reviews and seems to have a logical workflow to it. Also, it seems like a very complete package, incorporating video, audio and DVD authoring capabilities.

While any high end PC with fast CPU(s), plenty of RAM, and big/fast storage HDDs would be fine for editing video, I would like to "get it right". Specifically I want to maximise performance while editing in Vegas. Responsiveness/framerate while rendering previews is more important than the time to render the final output.

I have done some internet research and looked at some benchmarks.

This Anandtech article compares the Intel P4 6xx series to the AMD 64s.
AMD 64 has better performance in Adobe Premiere.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2353&p=7

This Tom's Hardware article compares dual CPU systems: Intel Xeon vs AMD Opteron. For video editing the results are varied, but overall the AMD Opteron seems superior. It also showed that for the Xeon, the i875 platform with DDR400 memory actually gives better performance than the newer, more expensive E7525 with DDR2 Registered memory.
http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20040927/opteron_vs_xeon-33.html

While these are useful, I have not been able to find any benchmarks or comparisons based specifically on Vegas 5. If anyone has any knowledge or experience on this matter, I would love to hear from you.

The primary issues I would like advice on are:
1) Single or dual CPU? Will it make a big difference, and is it worth the considerable extra money?
2) If single CPU, AMD Athlon 64 (socket 939) or Intel Pentium 4 600-series (socket 775)? I generally prefer the Athlon 64 as they have better price/performance for most tasks, and they run cooler.
3) If dual CPU, AMD Opteron or Intel Xeon (800fsb)?
4) Is 2GB of RAM worth the money (over 1GB)?

I have designed a few possible configurations below.
They differ mainly in CPU/motherboard/memory.

The 120GB PATA HDD will be used as a system drive to install Windows and programs. The two 200GB SATA HDDs will be in a RAID0 array and used for video footage. The 250GB SATA HDD will be used as storage for final footage, documents, and backups.

I have included a 3-port Firewire 800 card in each of the systems, as I believe a firewire cable connected to the camcorder is how footage is usually imported? I also believe this is preferable to using the onboard firewire?

The systems have a single 19" LCD, but I want to also hook up a standard TV for previewing. Is this simply done using the TV output (S-video) on the graphics card?

SYSTEM A: AMD ATHLON 64 - AU$4500 (US$3550)

AMD Athlon 64 3800+ 939 Retail Box
Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe 939
Corsair TWINX 3200C2 2048Mb/2Gb KIT (2x1024Mb)
Sparkle GF 6600 128Mb HDTV/DVI PCI-E
Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 (754/939/940)
Western Digital 1200JB 120Gb 8M IDE
Western Digital 2000JD 200Gb 8M SATA (x 2)
Seagate ST3250823AS 250Gb 8M SATA NCQ
Pioneer 109 Dual Layer 16x DVD+-RW OEM NO SOFTWARE Black
3 Port 1394 Firewire 800 64Bit PCI-X
Lian Li PC-71 Full Tower Server Case Aluminium Black
Antec Truepower 480w PSU
Logitech Internet Pro Keyboard & Mouse Black
Samsung 193P 1280x1024 19" Ana/Dig TFT - Black

SYSTEM B: DUAL AMD OPTERON - AU$5450 (US$4300)

Tyan Thunder K8WE S2895A2NRF nVidia SLI Dual Opteron
AMD Opteron 246 2-Way Retail Box (2)
Legend PC3200 DDR400 ECC/Reg 1Gb Module (x 2)
Sparkle GF 6600 128Mb HDTV/DVI PCI-E
Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 (754/939/940) (x 2)
Western Digital 1200JB 120Gb 8M IDE
Western Digital 2000JD 200Gb 8M SATA (x 2)
Seagate ST3250823AS 250Gb 8M SATA NCQ
Pioneer 109 Dual Layer 16x DVD+-RW OEM w/ Nero Suite 3 Black
3 Port 1394 Firewire 800 64Bit PCI-X
Lian Li PC-71 Full Tower Server Case Aluminium Black
Antec Truepower 550w EPS PSU
Logitech Internet Pro Keyboard & Mouse Black
Samsung 193P 1280x1024 19" Ana/Dig TFT - Black

SYSTEM C: DUAL INTEL XEON - AU$5200 (US$4100)

Asus NCCH-DL 800FSB 875P Dual Xeon
Intel Xeon MP 3.2Ghz 1Mb FSB800 Retail Box
Corsair TWINX 3200C2 2048Mb/2Gb KIT (2x1024Mb)
Sparkle GF 6600 128Mb HDTV/DVI AGP8x
Western Digital 1200JB 120Gb 8M IDE
Western Digital 2000JD 200Gb 8M SATA (x 2)
Seagate ST3250823AS 250Gb 8M SATA NCQ
Pioneer 109 Dual Layer 16x DVD+-RW OEM w/ Nero Suite 3 Black
3 Port 1394 Firewire 800 64Bit PCI-X
Lian Li PC-71 Full Tower Server Case Aluminium Black
Antec Truepower 550w EPS PSU
Logitech Internet Pro Keyboard & Mouse Black
Samsung 193P 1280x1024 19" Ana/Dig TFT - Black

There is no strict budget, but we don't want to pay for something that will give little or no tangible benefit.

Thanks in advance for any help, and for reading this long post!

Comments

BillyBoy wrote on 3/15/2005, 9:08 PM

There is no particular advantage/disadvantage between AMD or Intel. Pick your favorite, getting the fastest CPU your budget can afford. Dual processors at this time in my opinion are a waste of money since Vegas doesn't really take advantage. With Windows 64 around the corner, I'd wait and see how well or if Vegas 6 takes advantage of it or for that matter even runs well under it.

Get a decent motherboard, one that allows modest overclocking from the BIOS. These days, many do.

For previewing on an external monitor forget about using the video card as the output. Vegas is degined to use firewire. If your system has 100% IEE1394 (firewire) support, fine, if not, then any cheap 100% compliant firewire card will do. The connection is computer-via firewire to camera and back again. You can use either a camera that supports firewire to sit between your PC and external monitor or use a A/D convertor like the Canopus 100 or 300. With this you can easily go back and forth between analog devices like a tape deck and also use it to connect to your external monitor. 1 GB of RAM unless you plan on doing extensive "pre-renders" is plenty. Getting FASTER memory and understanding the relationship between FSB and memory will serve you better. Vegas uses the term "print to tape" which simply means you can write back to a DV tape in your camera using one of several included templates.

Two or more physical drives while not absolutely necessary are a real plus. Load your OS and applications on your root drive, get a big as one as your can afford for data and use it for rendering. I'm partial to using an external drive to render to. Again, just personal opinion, I like the ASUS cards. Currently using a againg P4P800 Deluxe.

edit

Lots of disucssion about type of external monitor in this forum. Check under my name for like to several tutorals (under setup for how I feel about monitors) elsewhere for some tips.

If you plan to make DVD's and have/are getting a wide screen TV to view them on, then probably best to also get a similar external monitor. Again, lots of discussion and passion on this issue. I recently purchased a 50 inch top of the line Plasma for home use and also a LCD "tv" that serves as my newer external monitor. If you're going to go HD soon probably want to think long and hard if you want to get a ultra high resolution XM.

Hulk wrote on 3/15/2005, 10:36 PM

http://www.hyperactivemusic.com/msprofiles/sony%20vegas%205/sony_vegas_5_audio_benchmark.htm

I have additional results I'll be posting soon.

In short, it's all about processor speed and then FSB speed. Despite variations in hard drives, video cards, etc... only processor and FSB has any significant impact on Vegas performance. 1GB of RAM is more than enough unless you need more dynamic RAM preview or do a lot of multitasking.

- Mark

logiquem wrote on 3/16/2005, 5:24 AM

A couple of suggestions:

1.I would certainely go for a dual screen setup (2 x 17" or 19") with this kind of budget.
2. Keep one big HD outside of the box. Put it in usb/1394 external enclosure. (This could be invaluable in some situations).
3. Insist on the most silent components you can get (HD, PS, cpu fan, graphic card fan and case fan).

Phil H wrote on 3/16/2005, 7:44 AM

Thanks for the informative replies. I really appreciate your help. :)

I'll probably end up going for a single-CPU AMD Athlon 64 (socket 939) 3800+ configuration. I'll reduce the amount of RAM down to 1GB, but get the XL version of the Corsair (which has lower latencies and will probably allow better overclocking). Will bump up the FSB a little to gain some performance, but want to keep it fairly mild as stability will be more important.

I agree on the ASUS boards being good. In my own system I have an ASUS P4C800-E Deluxe with an Intel P4 2.8Ghz and 1GB OCZ PC3500 EL RAM (overclocked it to 3.5 GHz).

Regarding the external preview monitor... He has a small (maybe 12-14") Panasonic broadcast monitor of good quality. He also has a Sony DV tape deck that will be connected to the PC via firewire, to get the footage into the computer. Can the same firewire link between the PC and DV tape deck be used for both importing footage and showing the preview on the external monitor (assuming the tape deck is connected to the broadcast monitor using S-Video)?

There is also a 40-something inch widescreen Sony plasma (in another room) to view the finished DVDs on.

Just out of interest, how well will this system handle HDV editing? Will it be real-time with 2 to 4 video tracks and simple transitions?

Hulk: I came across that website just shortly after I posted. Just what I was after! :)

logiquem: I agree that dual monitors would be ideal, however desk space is a bit of a problem. For now a single 19" LCD and small external broadcast monitor will do. Coming from a 17" CRT, I'm sure he'll love it. And yes, I want the system to be quiet. Hence the choice of Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 HSF. I will probably use a 520W SilenX PSU instead of the Antec I listed, and some other "quiet PC" parts will be used (Zalman VF700 VGA cooler, siliceous sheet to mount fans and PSU, etc).

Thanks again.

Cunhambebe wrote on 3/16/2005, 8:57 AM

Oh my, I thought you were gonna write a book here ;) Trust me, buy the AMD processor (Atlhon 64 - 939). At least, that's what I'd do ;)

BillyBoy wrote on 3/16/2005, 9:14 AM

Some here have reported problems with multiple firewire connections. I personally haven't had any... using a single firewire card that's still connected to a spare digital camera and a second firewire to my Canopus A/D. Devices vary a lot as far as what connections they support. For example the Canopus 300 which makes a big deal about having two firewire connectors in their ads tells you in the manual you can only use one at a time. It still works out for me since I use its D1 out to feed a component out to my external monitor and I then use composite in/out to connect to my deck. It also has a pair of S video connectors. I use the composite to take advantage of the noise filtering the 300 provides which needs the video signal combined for it to do its thing, internally filtering the lumaniance and chromance.

Dual monitors in another one of those personal choices. I tried it, and hated it. Others love it. Just so there's no confussion in this context 'dual monitors' means two computer monitors where portions of your desktop are stretched across the two monitors. These either requires two video cards or a card with multiple monitor support. This should not be confused with an 'external monitor' which always should be connected via firewire and used for color and level adjustment due to color space issues between computers and televisions if you projects will end up being viewed off some TV.

I don't know about HD, still too new for me, waiting for things to settle down more. As far as overall response "real time" previewing on the external monitor is relative to how much you load on. Example would be if with the higher end systems you're considering once you get into multiple tracks, start loading up FX filters, compositing, etc.. the frame rate on the external monitor will drop...like a rock if you add too much. It has no effect on the rendered project, only the 'real time' preview. Again here real time means you're seeing the result in real time, which may or may not approach the project frame rate depending on the power of your system and how much you got going. Which brings us back to an earler question. Some here, because of client looking over their shoulder want to have true real time, ie have what's appearing on the external monitor display at or close to the project frame rate. The way around that is what Vegas does with a RAM preview. So if you need that, (I doubt you do) then how long the preview is determined by how much RAM you have. So that's the exception to the rule. If you got to have 'real' real time previewing then you need a truck load of RAM, 4, 8 GB or more under those conditions. Again, few want/need that.

MH_Stevens wrote on 3/16/2005, 10:17 AM

DON'T BUY THE ATHLON 64 - FX OINLY

See my thread about Cineform says Athlon64 no good

OdieInAz wrote on 3/16/2005, 1:35 PM

There is one difference between P4 and AMD that no one mentions - support for SSE3 instrucitons. AMD is only now starting to support that. It is apparently beneficial for rendering to MPEG, with something like 20% (?) performance improvement (?) at the same clock speed. P4s have it, and the new Opteron has its. Another 3 - 6 months and AMD will have it in their Athlon 64 / 939.

fixler wrote on 3/16/2005, 2:02 PM

Phil H, the system sounds great but just a few things I would do...

1. Ensure that the 19" LCD had DVI input-greatest image quality
2. I would go with 2GB of RAM as this will give him the ability to render to RAM for preview. A feature I'm sure he will exhaust! 512MB would allow this but 2GB will give him much more space without gobbling up system resources.
3. I cannot recommend the Matrox video cards enough! I suggest you look at the Millenium P650/750 as they offer the best picture qualty and dual monitor functionality I have seen. The images on DVI are stunning!!!
4. DVD Burner: The Pioneer is really nice, but for around the same $$ you can pick up the Sony which I think is a touch better. It seems to be winning every award as well so I guess it ain't just me?
5. You mentioned he will be using the 250GB HD for dtoring old projects-I really recommend an external for this. The Maxtor One-Touch I/II are unbeatable. It offers USB2/Firewire 400. They are so good if he wants to take his work on the road or needs to keep prior work off premises. A great security option!!

Otherwise the system looks great! Happy shopping!

Coursedesign wrote on 3/16/2005, 2:44 PM

Look at Acoustiproducts gear if you want a quiet PC. That would make quite a difference over just a quiet PSU and fans.

I have been using Matrox cards continuously since their very first one, and the image quality has always been superb.

If you want to add any compositing etc. software that uses OpenGL (After Effects, Combustion, ...) , you'll miss out on a lot with Matrox though because they don't target this at all, their OpenGL support is not good.

The better choice currently is nVidia cards (several manufacturers using their chipsets). I have a $55 nVidia card (OK, it was on sale at Newegg) on my uncompressed workstation and it's been rock solid and very very high image quality. 100% silent because it is fanless, which is rare today. Dual monitor support of course, and rock solid OpenGL 1.5 (although for top performance in this a more expensive card is needed).

dat5150 wrote on 3/17/2005, 6:30 PM

Billy....can you give the details and maybe model # on your LCD TV?

Ben wrote on 3/17/2005, 6:46 PM

Coursedesign - that nVidia card sounds like just like what I'm after. Do you know the name/serial of the actual card so I could track it down? Is it DVI for the dual monitor support?

Thanks
Ben

BillyBoy wrote on 3/17/2005, 10:53 PM

Its a Samsung LT-P227W.