If price was not a problem ......

we rent the Sony PDW-F350 for work in HD. There is a great review in
the August issue of HDVideoPro on its sibling the F335. I simply love
using the ProDisc with Vegas.There is no lanc since it uses pro ENG/studio
type lenses.

I have yet been able to try a Sony EX1 but I am hoping Santa will deliver
one for Christmas!
It doesn't have a lanc either so my existing Bebob Zoe won't move up but
they make a pan handle control for the EX1!

Both are tapeless. Both are not cheap. Perfect camera? No such thing
but can tell you they are getting close.

Don't think the Canon FS11 is HD, but only SD in MPEG2.

If you want to look at Canon, you should look at the HF-10, HF-100 or the new HF-11, which basicly is a HF-10 with 32 GB internal memory and a bid higher bit rate on the footage, comming soon. look at www.camcorderinfo.com for tests.

I have edited AVCHD from and HF-10 in Vegas 8 and it was ok, but even on a quadcore 2.4 GHz, 3 GB RAM, it was not 25 fps preview all along. You can convert to HDV with a small util from www.vasst.com and that should ease it a bid.

I like the idea of being able to watch the clips inside the camera one by one and see them as thumbs.

I would do a search on forum and read the long 'HDV thread' and also visit the camcorderinfo page for info / review of the different cams. I have a feeling that they do a decednt job testing, but again, it's just my feeling.

Good luck, and pls. post when you have decided - it's always interesting to know what other people end up with, you might learn something yourself too :-)

/Ulf

Dries,
You didn't say what was your budget. However, I think most, if not all, your wishlist is covered by the SONY HVR-S270 or the smaller HVR-Z7.

I know for a fact they they both have Lanc control and both are excellent in low light.

Both worth a closer look. IMHO.
Tom

Nice machine Tom, but way over my budget haha. The three models I mentioned before are in the $ 1000,- $ 1500,- price range.

Sony HDR-SR12 has a mic in (the red 1/8" jack on the side). Many have used
XLR adapters from http://beachtek.com/dxa6vu.htmlBeachtek[/link].
The one Iinked to has a VU meter as couldn't find one mentioned in onscreen
features. This will help with all important sound, but adds alot of weight. Wouldn't
hold it in your palm long without a tripod. The 16:9 LCD with touch screen is nice.

For the price really nice, tapeless! You will need extra battery, HDMI nice feature
when traveling as many hotels are upgrading to TVs with HDMI jacks. Buy
a rubber lens hood to keep out sun. Screw in ND filters or polarizers good
to have.

Low light....well still haven't seen much in consumer cameras. Football games
still come out good. Family birthday parties....look at an LED on camera light
or better yet build yourself a "nanolight". Even the pros use lights.

With exception of the Beachtek, all the goodies mentioned $1500 within your
budget mentioned. I am not an AVCHD expert so don't know workflow with Vegas.
I'd try it out at your dealer and play it back on their HD tv set.

This HDR-SR12 may well be the best bet so far, although it misses a cold shoe for a on camera shotgun mic (not Sony).
And I wonder why a LANC controller is no longer considered as an important feature.
Even one of my old Sony's (TVR33) has one.

"And I wonder why a LANC controller is no longer considered as an important feature."

Because you're looking at consummer cameras and anything that Joe Average doesn't use that can be removed to save 10 cents is.

In general over the last few years the image quality and usability features of consummer cameras has gone downhill. Lower prices and better bragging rights (e.g. more pixels, higher zoom ratios) are what drives that market segment.

Bob.

Think I am going to have a look at the Canon Vixia HF11 when it hits the streets. The Sony HDR-SR12 lacks audio metering, which I also consider pretty essential.
As I said, no such thing as the perfect camera (yet).

There is also the Canon HG20 and 21 which both has haddrive and memorycard.

/Ulf

Don't tell my wife about the Canon Vixia HF11 or she won't let me get an EX1!

Looks really good and has the audio meter!

I use the Sony HVR-HD100U (there is a pal varient I think). Has everything you want including LANC (or whatever, and I'm sure it has the foot thinggy you wanted, don't know exactly what it is & couldn't find a good description on the net) but isn't great in low light (depends on what you mean by "low light"). It's the bigger version of the HDR-HC9 but with some more features:
Shutter 1/4-1/2500, audio metering (plus mic level input control), foxus, exposure, shutter, white balance & zoom on a single ring (programmable).

I just used it to shoot a short film for the 48 hour film project this weekend. I was very happy with it.

But it uses tapes. I don't want a hard drive camera, I want to keep the tapes.

The reason I hate tapes is that they are mechanical and require head cleaning when you least want it (during a shoot).
Real time capturing is also I can do without as with the one hour tape limitation.
Another issue, these type of consumer cams turn itself off if nothing is captured on tape (stand by mode). When you capture using a laptop I can tell you this is quite annoying.
That's why I want to say goodbeye to the MiniDV era once and for all.

The reason I hate tapes is that they are mechanical and require head cleaning when you least want it (during a shoot).

I keep a cleaning tape in my camera bag. I've NEVER had to clean the recording heads though, just the play heads. But that always sucks.

Real time capturing is also I can do without as with the one hour tape limitation.

Was talking to a photo guy I work with who still uses film One of his biggest reasons to use film was specificly because it limits you to the # of shots you get per roll. Why? One SD memory can hold thousands of shots. One roll holds ~24 shots. Loose the memory card/camera with card it it & you're out EVERYTHING. Loose a roll of film/camera with roll in it, out AT MOST 24 shots. Same thing with the non-removable media cameras (plus, once the HD is fill, it's full, if you can't offload it you're SOL).

Another issue, these type of consumer cams turn itself off if nothing is captured on tape (stand by mode). When you capture using a laptop I can tell you this is quite annoying.

the HD1000U doesn't do this, always stays on. Plus, for any consumer DV camera I've tried, put a tape in with the record tab set to lock the tape. The camera will keep givving you the error message "protected tape" & won't shut off. This has worked on my miniDV, Hi8 & various MiniDV cameras I've borrowed.

I'd rather try to get one of those SD Memory camera's vs a hard drive cam. More $$ but avoid the bad issues of the HD cameras & keep the good of the mini-DV ones (but more $$).

>>1. High capacity HD recording
>>2. Excellent low light performance
>>3. HD & SD formats (SD also in 25p)
>>4. External mic connection
>>5. Cold shoe
>>6. Lens (LANC) controller connection
>>7. Hassle free Vegas Pro 8 work flow (from HD to SD)

...I don't think you will be able to fulfill your entire list at the price range you are considering. ( $1,000 - $1,500 )

Canon FS11
- No HD
- No LANC
- Good consumer grade low-light performance

Canon HF-11
- No LANC
- Good consumer grade low-light performance

Panasonic HDC-HS100
- No LANC
- Poor consumer grade low-light performance

Sony HDR-SR12
- No LANC
- Good consumer grade low-light performance

...If you could double your budget, then I would be looking at either the Canon XH-A1 or wait for the new Panasonic HMC150 which should be out by October. ( the HMC150 looks amazing ) Either of these cameras have all of the items on your list, have much better low-light performance, and add full manual controls and professional audio support to the mix. ( You will likely have to purchase the RayLight software for Vegas to support the HMC150 )

The HMC is AVCHD, not DVCProHD, so Vegas should support it natively. That said, people here have posted problems getting Panasonic and Canon AVCHD to work in Vegas, but even then, Raylight wouldn't help.

The HMC150 is truly promissing indeed, but I just gave up on that type of camera (DVX102). Think I sweat it out until the Canon HF11 surfaces.

Thanks all for the suggestions, Dries.

I just saw night footage from my HD1000U in in a theater via projector last night, looked AWESOME. So I take back my stuff on it's low light performance. :D

>>>The HMC is AVCHD, not DVCProHD, so Vegas should support it natively.

I've read in other video forums that hands on reviewers have had a lot of problems getting HMC150 files to work in Vegas. One of the users stated that RayLight solved this for him. This might be a file format issue.

>>>I just saw night footage from my HD1000U in in a theater via projector last night,
>>>looked AWESOME. So I take back my stuff on it's low light performance

The author of the review below stated:

"With the HD1000, shooting a live performance of The Nutcracker was easy—
except in low-light scenes, which required a complicated set of manual adjustments."

HD100U Review
http://digitalcontentproducer.com/cameras/revfeat/sony_hvr-hd100u_0101/index1.html

PROs: Shoulder-mount, extensive I/O, onscreen histogram, balanced weight.

CONs: No manual control switch, no peaking mode, auto focus doesn't work as well in low light, no spotlight control, sensitive control ring.

Never said that I wanted it to automatically work in low light, I manually did it myself. I had most stuff on manual for the movie I shot anyway. If I wanted just auto I would of bought a cheaper camera. :)

Dingo, I hadn't read that about the HCM. I wonder if that's due to Panasonic's AVCHD or the higher bitrate? If its the bitrate, I wonder if it will affect the new canon HF11 at almost HDV bitrates.

Anyway, I got curious, and started playing with Raymaker (the raylight conversion app) and didn't realize you could just drag and drop AVCHD clips right in. Also HDV works too. This could have been the work around I was looking for last week-oh well, you learn something knew all the time.

A couple of questions for you guys here, all of 'em all over the place and mostly out-there:

1. Does the bit rate affect the playback on the timeline or only the amount of record time?

2. I've always wondered why automatic controls would be cheaper. It seems like a 'dumber' camera would more economical-less programing and sensors and stuff.

3. I read an article at DV.com about Sony at NAD, and there was one tiny blurb about a smaller EX that would be the follow up the HVR-A1. Has anyone else heard or seen anything else about that?

kairosmatt

I believe TheDingo was refering to me. I got a bunch of HMC footage and tested various Vegas workflows. Native AVCHD files do not work in Vegas 8.0b...however, I did get it to work with a slight tweak.

The two flows I got working were:

AVCHD footage -> DVCPro HD (using a mainconept converter) then use Raylight to edit in Vegas. This worked out well and produced fantastic images. (see sample render from this workflow at http://vimeo.com/1576760 )

I also downloaded a test m2tsplug.dll from a vegas thread and replaced the standard dll from Vegas 8.0b. I could then drag all the AVCHD clips into Vegas. When I previewed all of the files (720/24p, 720/30p, 720/60p, 1080/24p, 1080/30p, and 1080/60p, and 1080/60i), they worked. When I tried to drag any 60p files into the timeline, Vegas crashed. When I rendered out the images from this flow ( see sample http://vimeo.com/1576961 ) the files looked fantastic again. Editing was slower, but it worked.

BTW, after reviewing the box I am buying one of these cams as soon as they hit the streets.