Peter, routing question

PipelineAudio wrote on 11/7/2002, 6:30 PM
If I want to send a track completely unmolested to an output, so that track 1 goes out channel 1 on my soundcard, how do I do it without hurting anything?

For instance, in order to do this, I'd set up a stereo buss, say, Buss A, and assign buss A to stereo 1&2 out. Then I would assign track 1 to Buss A, pan track 1 100% left and drop channel 1 6 dB

How do I do this correctly?
Can I just uncheck the boxes for the channels fx? or do I delete them?
Should I be attenuating the channel fader 6dB? or the buss fader? Does dropping the 6 dB truly set it back to zero? or is some math done, so that the output no longer is a perfect digital clone of the track?
Is there some sort of dithering going on ?

Comments

Rednroll wrote on 11/7/2002, 11:24 PM
Lol!!! The word "clueless" comes to mind. Oh Peter...Please help me, I'm an incompitent twit, can you please tell me how to route signals so they go unmolested.

Peter, give him some real advice and tell him to find another job, because if he doesn't even know how to route signals digitally without effecting them, then there's really no hope for this boy wonder.
bgc wrote on 11/7/2002, 11:59 PM
uh oh, here we go...
;)
bgc
Nat wrote on 11/8/2002, 12:00 AM
I'd be interested by an answer, I'm a recording newbie and this info would help me,

Thanks
Rednroll wrote on 11/8/2002, 12:18 AM
Sorry Nat....you're a newby, but this guy has been recording for 10 years and still doesn't know the answer. Send me an email at REDNROLL@HOTMAIL.COM and I will tell you the answer.....for right now the suspence is gonna kill this expert......oh Please help me Peter......LOL!!!
pwppch wrote on 11/8/2002, 1:08 AM
Well Rednroll since you decided to be a bit testy with a simple question, why don't you tell us all how you'd do this in Vegas.

Peter
PipelineAudio wrote on 11/8/2002, 1:27 AM
as far as I can tell, every app is different. Some dither outputs, some dont. And tons of other variables I'm sure. I dont begin to grasp the complexities of making an audio app, so sue me.

It seems to me that turning down the gain, even though bringing it back up, with the pann law that vegas uses, would change the audio in some way, but I DONT KNOW...hopefully Peter can tell me...and if theres a different way, Im all ears. Im not psychic, so I dont know how they coded this app, and even if I did, I bet theres ways I havent heard. I'm not too close minded to ask questions
Geoff_Wood wrote on 11/8/2002, 2:21 AM
Jeeze Redinroll, have you been allocated November for 'arsehole of the month', taking over from JoeD in October ?

geoff
Arnar wrote on 11/8/2002, 3:11 AM
When you get too cocky to ask questions, thats when you have stopped learning and started falling behind!
Thats just my honest opinion.
Rednroll wrote on 11/8/2002, 3:12 AM
"Well Rednroll since you decided to be a bit testy with a simple question, why don't you tell us all how you'd do this in Vegas."

Sure no problem, anything other support you want me lend to YOUR customers Peter?....please send me the check in the mail and at least give me something challenging next time.

Well, since he said "Track 1" I'll assume it's a mono track....either case it's the same...Set the channel fader to 0dB....do NO panning, leave it in the center....just route it to Bus A, which will be outputs 1/2. Equal level of the mono track will be sent to both outputs 1 and 2 "unmolested"....remove all plugins on the channel and the bus...make sure your bus A fader is also set at 0dB. Make sure you're "project sampling frequency and bit depth is set to the same properties of the original .Wav file. If you want no signal sent to output 2, then goto the bus and ungroup the faders and pull output 2 down. That will give you the most "unmolested" path. If you really want to use the panning then you will need to pan hard left and lower the channel fader to -6dB. Virtually Input equals output if you're going through a digital output.

Oh almost forgot the new Pan feature's in Vegas 3.0. You can also do a hard pan to the left if you select the "Constant" power pan control and can leave the channel fader at 0dB, thefefore "unmolesting" it from a fader adjustment if you use the default "add channels" pan option, which would make you have to reduce the channel fader -6dB as I previously mentioned.

Is that correct Peter? Do I get a star on my forehead?

Yours truly,
Red
PipelineAudio wrote on 11/8/2002, 11:05 AM
Thanks for the pan info. Im still not entirely convinced tho. For one thing, Im not so sure that the code would be written in a way that a pan would leave it unmolestes, also theres another biggie

While we were talking about buss fx being POST buss fader, peter, or someone else said it had to be that way because of dithering reasons. How do you turn this dither off? and is that the ONLY thing going on ?
Rednroll wrote on 11/8/2002, 11:54 AM
Why don't you just do a "open copy in Sound Forge" and play it back in Sound Forge , and route it to the particular output you want? Then you don't have to worry about any pan controls or anything else.
PipelineAudio wrote on 11/8/2002, 11:59 AM
Because I want to use my console to summ sometimes, I need multiple outs. Especially lately as we have ditched the Soundcraft Ghost and now have a console with a sound that I'd like to incorporate possibly...really just experimenting at this point
bgc wrote on 11/8/2002, 12:33 PM
Pipeline. There is one very, very simple test to make sure that Vegas isn't "molesting" your track with the panner. Simply take a known track, do what Red suggests (which is correct) and then go into Sound Forge and compare what you started with and what you rendered. You can compare two mono tracks by creating a stereo track, put one mono in L and one in R and then use the channel converter tool and choose "difference between channels". You should get nothing (silence).
Another way to verify that Vegas is doing what you think (or to verify that you haven't done something dumb like forget to take out a track effect or bus effect) is to do your render and reload that into Vegas. Then create two tracks with the original and the rendered audio and flip the phase of one of the tracks. They should cancel to silence. I do this all the time to verify that my renders are "pure".
bgc
PipelineAudio wrote on 11/8/2002, 12:53 PM
Ok the phase flip test comes out fine when I checked in vegas, so then what was this dither mentioned when we were talking pre/post fader fx on the master busses? Does it only come on when there is more than one track being mixed to the buss? Do the track inserts need to be deleted or just bypassed? I deleted them for this test, but I'd really love to know what exactly is going on.
Rednroll wrote on 11/8/2002, 2:02 PM
Oh the Drama....Peter!!..Peter!!....where art thou Peter?

I have no idea about what dither you're talking about or the content it was in, and it sounds like you don't either. If you're really that concerned about it, then I would suggest going out, and buying a book and reading up on what "Dither" is and then maybe it would clear up some of your questions. As far as having the EQ's in "bypass" or elliminated, I am going to reach into some of my programming experience and take a stab and say that when they're elliminated altogether, this is different then just having them in "bypass". When you have them in "bypass" there is a calculation still happening, thus using CPU power. The calculation is basically a math equation which adds some value to the original signal. In the case of bypass it's doing this calculation and the value comes up to be zero. So basically your output is ORIGINAL SIGNAL + 0 = ORIGINAL SIGNAL. In the case where they're elliminated you get ORIGINAL SIGNAL + (NO ADDITIONAL EQUATION)= ORIGINAL SIGNAL. In either case, the result is unaffected, and are the same.

Oh Peter...please come to our rescue and verify for us. How can you leave me here all by myself with the big bad red?
bgc wrote on 11/8/2002, 4:21 PM
I believe I've asked Peter in the past and I thought that he said Bypass does remove the plug-in from the chain and does not consume cpu cycles (a true signal and processing by-pass).
bgc
AudioMAN wrote on 11/8/2002, 6:18 PM
Well, I've been reading some of the threads here and It has been obvious that some use this forum for audio purposes and some, who aparently don't have much of a life, use the forum to satisfy some inner insecurities, or maybe it's some kinda impotence problem with the ol' lady, or I think even more aparent, some have a basic agtagonisticly, inept ability to converse with peers. We all know who the later is,,, Rednroll,,, I just don't understand why this f'khead even hangs out here, it seems to be such a ordeal for him, HE IS THE KING OF "DRAMA QUEENS". WHAT I WANNA KNOW IS; how does he get into his house or car, his head must be the size of "port-a-potty", must be tough traveling around with such an ego. At this point, I guess I should be addressing him personally, Rednroll, my best advise is this, solve whatever life challenges or mental deficiencies you may have, outside of the forums, don't bring your BS to us, it is not only a waste of time to read your threads (due to the exhaustive effort you put into bashing honest, hardworking, PROFFESSIONALS). You may know a thing er two about a thing er two, but your being an A$$HOLE, far outways any talent or experience you may have acquired, and that is being quite generous,,, illuding to the fact that you may have any talent or experience. Your probably some 15 or 16 yr old, with repressive parents, who spends all his time in chat rooms, and makin' .mp3s, if your anything more, then listen to a newcomers feedback re: your obvious lack of proffessionalism and/or anger mgmt issues. Well I am feeling like this is gonna be a waste of time, as he's probably not gonna listen, and start f'king with me, what a loser. My sympathies, PipelineAudio, this guy is a real "piece of art or sh!t" depending on how one chooses to phrase it.
AudioMAN wrote on 11/8/2002, 8:05 PM
threads like this from rednroll are what encouraged my thread:

Subject: RE: Peter, routing question
Posted by: Rednroll (Ignore This User)
Date: 11/7/2002 11:24:36 PM

Lol!!! The word "clueless" comes to mind. Oh Peter...Please help me, I'm an incompitent twit, can you please tell me how to route signals so they go unmolested.

Peter, give him some real advice and tell him to find another job, because if he doesn't even know how to route signals digitally without effecting them, then there's really no hope for this boy wonder.

THEN THE NEXT 2 THREADS REALLY PISSED ME OFF:

Subject: RE: Peter, routing question
Posted by: Nat (Ignore This User)
Date: 11/8/2002 12:00:45 AM

I'd be interested by an answer, I'm a recording newbie and this info would help me,
Thanks
Reply

Subject: RE: Peter, routing question
Posted by: Rednroll (Ignore This User)
Date: 11/8/2002 12:18:07 AM

Sorry Nat....you're a newby, but this guy has been recording for 10 years and still doesn't know the answer. Send me an email at REDNROLL@HOTMAIL.COM and I will tell you the answer.....for right now the suspence is gonna kill this expert......oh Please help me Peter......LOL!!!


PipelineAudio wrote on 11/9/2002, 11:40 AM
well, any comments Peter? Or do I have to just endure this tripe? What of the post fader buss fx thing? Does that have nothing to do with this?
Rednroll wrote on 11/9/2002, 1:20 PM
Oh Peter, Please help me....that big bad red is way too knowledgeable for me to debate with...Please come to my help and support my incompetitence.

Originally posted by Myst:
"AudioMAN, you're new here and it shows.
BTW, what great advice did you give in the 5 or 6 threads you've posted the same reply to? Uhh, none!
Come back when you have intelligent things to write.
Hey wait! Is that you, JoeD??"


Good Call Myst. I thought it was either JoeD or Pipeline. Pipeline's done this one in the past, where he creates a new user, so it looks like he has a posse behind him. And again, here's another "newly" created username and the only posts they've made is to come in here and bash my posts.....ewwwwww...the drama again. What's is this Pipeline? Not smart enough to convince other people that your "opinions", that have no facts behind them hold water, so you keep creating other users to look like a lot of people are on the same page as you? I called you out the first time you tried this, why don't you come up with something original for once? Oh!!!, you're one of those engineers with no creativity....isn't that special, no wonder you still make $10/hr working for someone else and come in here to vent you're frustrations.
PipelineAudio wrote on 11/9/2002, 10:02 PM
"Oh Peter, Please help me....that big bad red is way too knowledgeable for me to debate with...Please come to my help and support my incompetitence"

Oh sorry I wasnt aware YOU wrote the code for vegas! Since Peter is on the vegas team I asked him, not you.


"Pipeline's done this one in the past, where he creates a new user, so it looks like he has a posse behind him."

nope sorry not me. And Audioman can speak for himself, without any help from me. Engage HIM in some pointless debates, and he'll make you look silly. I'd rather spend time on wringing the last .00001 % of performance out of my audio gear
AudioMAN wrote on 11/10/2002, 8:33 AM
What a tiny little mind, to think that only the reciepiants are bothered by your need to offend and insult those seeking knowlege. My last threads were written to state my disdain for your use of this forum to vent personal feelings re: other users whom you may have "issues" with, that is what email and chat rooms are for, get it out of your system, once and for all, don't fight like a girl, in a forum. And also in my last threads I wanted to commend those with the stamina and dedication to continue gaining wisdom, in spite of jerk-offs like you and myst. It is hard enough to find knowlege and "correct and accurate" information in our biz, there aren't many sources to get the education, especially at the level PipelineAudio is at, one must put in alot of time and effort and seek out those who have the "correct" info we need. I think that's why most of us are here, to seek info, NOT to contend with "farts in the wind", like you two. IF YOU'RE NOT HELPING, YOU'RE IN THE WAY. My appolgies to all who may have found my threads troublesome, but I have been reading the forum for awhile, getting tons of info without even having to post, but friggin' rednroll, has been buggin' the hell out of me with his BULL$HIT attitudes, and his willingness to use this forum, instead of privately voicing, his objections and complaints with PipelineAudio. I finally snapped and had to relay this. Unfortunately, I have completely resorted to thier mindless antics, which I will discontinue as of now, AS LONG AS rednroll, USES THE FORUM FOR IT'S INTENDED PURPOSES, TO ALLOW Sonic Foundry to get feedback on their products and TO GIVE US ALL A COMMUNITY TO DISCUSS AND CONSULT WITH OTHERS USING THESE SAME PRODUCTS.
Angelic_Records wrote on 11/10/2002, 7:42 PM
Hey all, I'm a newbie, to this forum anyways,
and been reading some of the threads, and frankly,
I agree with audioman.
Though he may have over dramatized the whole situation,
he has made a very significant point. I believe that point is;
Other users shouln't be our advisaries, but our allies,
and we should share info rather than providing an obstacle in gaining it.
We are all trying to accomplish very similar objectives and it should be
a "tight-knit" group, not a bunch of bickering idiots.
Angelic Records
Rednroll wrote on 11/10/2002, 11:22 PM
"Though he may have over dramatized the whole situation,
he has made a very significant point. I believe that point is;
Other users shouln't be our advisaries, but our allies"

Why don't you do a search on my username and see how many posts I have helped other users out with? Then look at the rest who offer no useful information and just come in to bash my posts because they disagree with them, yet offer no backing information supporting their viewpoint. Of course, those users posts can also be looked up under "Audioman, pipeline,and JoeD". Then they go crying as they get in a debate with me and resort to name calling because they have no knowledge to back up their misinformative "opinions". I've done my homework and have worked hard for my knowledge in my audio career and I am continuing to learn new technologies daily. If you think you can come in here and call me a "jerk-off", then you will get slapped like the rest of them. Knowledge is power baby, and as I've said, I've worked hard and have done my homework, through education, teaching, and work experience. I've helped more users on this forum than ANYONE. So you can descide, if you want my helpful advice or not. You have a choice NOT to read it, but you will see that most of the people who criticize me the most, still read my posts because I offer them the most useful information. I think Pipeline is still waiting for a reply from Peter, but look who was the one who came through first with "Correct" information?

Myst, is a user that has been in these forums for a long time, and knows how these other Bozoos attack me on a daily basis, and sees how I prove them wrong EVERYTIME. Myst also knows I help many users out on a daily basis, and the only ones who get mud thrown at them, are the ones who started throwing mud at me in the first place. But when the time comes where I slap these silly fools back, all of a sudden all these new users come out of the woodwork, saying a bunch of crap about me. Hey...here's too ya...Bite ME!!!

Yours Truly,
Red

P.S. This statement just really tickles the funny bone.

"It is hard enough to find knowlege and "correct and accurate" information in our biz, there aren't many sources to get the education, especially at the level PipelineAudio is at, one must put in alot of time and effort and seek out those who have the "correct" info we need."

Can you say oxy-moron? If you want "correct and accurate" information, some good advice would be to NOT listen too any of Pipeline's advice. You can go back and read a ton of posts where I've had to prove him wrong on his misinformative advice. Hmmmm...Pipeline/Audioman, don't bust your arm trying to pat yourself on the back too hard, right now you're missing and totally slappin your own ass.