Phantom frames...

Javaholics wrote on 2/16/2006, 5:53 PM
Having just completed burning a recently edited project and now viewing it for the first time on TV, I noticed what appears to be very short snippets of commercials I swear I removed from the original source. In this case, the original source was a VHS tape of a TV show that had commercials in it. Using DVD-VMS, I drilled down to individual frames at all video/commercial junctures to ensure I saw no video nor heard any audio. Once satisfied I removed all traces of the commercial, I butted the two pre/post-commercial video segments together and then previewed this new union to verify successful removal of the commercial. Once I had all the commercials removed, I went back and added Fade-in/outs to all new unions by overlapping the segments and again previewed each Fade to verify the results. Satisfied with my project, I Rendered it as an AVI and sent it to DVD-AS, created a simple Menu and Rendered it as an MPEG utilizing the 'Optimize' and 'Fit-to-Disk' option.

Based on the info I've shared, can anyone give me any suggestions as to why I might be seeing small snippets of previously removed commercials reappearing in the burned disk yet not detectable in the pre-burn previews? Thanks.

Comments

Chienworks wrote on 2/16/2006, 7:07 PM
Can't help you with a solution, but i'll commiserate with you. I too have seen this occasionally when working with material from VHS. I can't imagine any reason why the source would matter, since once it's captured it's all digital data. *shrug* Just wanted to let you know you're not alone.

About the only solution i've found is to trim back a few more frames and add fades to cover what might be missing.
Tim L wrote on 2/16/2006, 9:33 PM
"Once I had all the commercials removed, I went back and added Fade-in/outs to all new unions by overlapping the segments "

It's sounds like you know what you're doing, and I'm sure Chien knows what he's doing, but I'll offer this response anyway...

When you overlapped the segments, did you do this by actually moving the entire second segment so it partially overlapped the first? Or did you grab the end of the first segment and drag it out to the right to overlap the second? (Or, similarly, drag the beginning of the second segment so it overlapped the first.)

If you dragged the end (or beginning) of one of the clips to create the overlap, you would have added back in the frames you carefully deleted. However, you would probably see the commercial frames when you previewed on the PC.

Another thing that comes to mind: when you stepped frame-by-frame to locate the first frame of the commercial, are you sure you were zoomed in enough to get individual frames? If zoomed out a little bit on the timeline, what looks like stepping a frame at a time might actually be stepping 3 or 4 frames at a time. You can always do ALT-right-arrow (or is it CTRL-right-arrow?) at any zoom level to step one frame at a time.

Also, the real-time preview on the computer -- especially before rendering -- often skips frames when previewing transitions (depending on your computer speed, of course). It tries to keep up with real-time playback speed, and may have to skip frames in order to stay on schedule. Could explain why you didn't see the frames in the preview.

Again, you sound like you really know what you're doing, but that's just a few things that come to mind.

Tim L
Javaholics wrote on 2/17/2006, 7:47 AM
Thanks for the "...sounds like you know what you're doing" comment but really I'm still new to this process and just trying to learn.

Looking back on my lapping methods, I believe I did it all the ways you mentioned and did not consistently utilize any one method. In fact, I am positive that on more than one occasion, I did grab just the end of a segment and drag it over and or perhaps more precisely, I grabbed the whole segment and placed it roughly where I thought it should go and then tweaked its position by grabbing the very end to either expand or contract it.

While I try not to assume anything, would it be safe to assume in this case that had I not grabbed the very end's of any of the segments, I likely would have not added back in those segments of commercials that I thought I had removed?

Are there any limits with regard to length of lap area for any given lap such that adverse problems might be experienced, i.e.; snippets of frames once removed, reappearing? ...that is if I don't create these laps by grabbing the ends of them?

While I feel somewhat certain I was drilled all the way in and stepping frame-by-frame, I didn't know of the keyboard/arrow trick so I'll be certain to try this the next time.

I like your explanation regarding my PC's ability, or lack there of, to keep up with real-time previews. If my end-grabbing methods resulted in adding back in only a few snippets of a once removed commercial, then skipping frames during preview playback certainly seems plausible to me.

Thank you very much for your help, much appreciated.
Paul Mead wrote on 2/17/2006, 9:30 AM
I have seen cases of junk I know I removed showing up, but I saw it during the preview (something got way confused in VMS that day; there was stuff from events I had completely removed from the track).

Now that you know what to look for you could go back, pull the events apart (get rid of the overlap), and examine the first/last frames in those events to see if you had stretched the events too far. There is a chance that will put your mind at ease (or make you more frustrated, but let's be optimistic here...).
Javaholics wrote on 3/1/2006, 8:20 AM
Just a quick follow-up to say, thanks to your suggestions, I resolved my issue;

I found that by grabbing the very end of a previously edited segment and lapping it over another to create my fade-ins/outs, I was in essence stretching or elongating that segment which in turn resulted in adding back in, the very junk I had previously deleted from it. The more I stretched it, the more junk or 'Phantom frames' reappeared. When lapping segments to create fade-ins/outs, if I move the entire segment as a whole, then I no longer experienced the 'Phantom frames' reappearing.