Poor sync in Vegas Audio

planetpaul wrote on 2/17/2002, 10:29 PM

I use vegas audio, latest version with a Motu 24i and a Motu 1224. Windows XP pro. 1.4 ghz, 512 ram. I do commercial recording and have used vegas pretty much since it came out. Adats before that. I am familiar with the software and recording in general.

I use the 24i internal clock for the 324 clock source. I have set audio preferences for interpolating and recording latency in every way imaginable. I use no, nor sync to any external digital devices while tracking. I track drums thru a mackie 1604 vlz straight to the 24i. I've got a top and bottom snare mic. Sounds great at first on playback, top mic, very short, almost immperceptable delay, bottom mic. Great. Later in the same take the thing is drifting. Top mic, big noticable delay, bottom mic. You can pull up the wave forms and zoom in and see it. At first, top and bottom wave forms printed almost exactly together. Later on, way off.

Furthermore, overheads are out of sync. Very erratic. At first, they may be ok, nice close snare mic up the center, overheads panned left and right making a little delay from the distance of the mics. Great, just what I wanted. Later in same take, same room, same mic placment, one of the overheads has a 30 ms Elvis slapback. Im talking 20 seconds later during playback, same take, same mic placement, same drum. Vegas is printing tracks erratically. It's noticable on other instruments as well. I'm not talking about overdubbing, monitoring during this simulataneous tracking is done in the real worl analog mixer. Latency in that way is not the issue. Phase cancellation is not the issue. Delay from mic placement is not the issue. And I'm not just talking about a drummer who can't keep a beat. Believe me, after years of tracking in a project studio, I know what a bad drummer sounds like. Somebody please help me before I go buy a mackie 24 track hd recorder. I know I can't really edit on the thing, but I bet it at least has good sync.

Planet Paul

Comments

Dide wrote on 2/18/2002, 10:05 AM

I have Vegas from some years now, and it's the same problem over here !
I never get a good sync... i have try every solution(SF and other guys give me)
And when i start a track ...it's ok but after a while he get's out of sync/drifting ?
Not when i am playing !! only when i record something (sync to my other computer with a sequenser).
When i use another multitrack program(witch i not like ..)it's working fine ??
I use a Motu 2408mkII, internal clock ,1Ghz PIII 256mb and a opcode 128X midi converter.
Till now fix it manualy(cut/past etc tack on track)
I din't try it with Vegas 3(not yet)... so maybe it's ok now we will see!

Regards,
Dide

MixNut wrote on 2/18/2002, 11:22 AM

You've got some problem specific to your hardware/software arrangement...I routinely record in 16 tracks at once at 24 bit with a MOTU 1224 and 2408 and have never had a problem.

The first thing I would try is setting the MOTU clock source to the PCI324 INTERNAL and let it be the clock master of *both* interfaces. I have found that my whole system becomes a bit flakey and slow to react when clocked to the 1224 interal clock. And, I don't think that the PCI card will pass clock from one device to the other. The only way I can think for this to happen is that one interface is at a different sample rate than the other...

Are there any consistencies as to which device's inputs become delayed? i.e. the 24i inputs are OK but the 1224's are not?

Good luck

Sari wrote on 2/18/2002, 12:01 PM

I run VA2.0 and VV3.0 in synch regularly. I have no problems with both my WamiRack24 as well as Layla.

planetpaul wrote on 2/18/2002, 5:05 PM

Thank you for your replies. I have tried the 324i setting for clock source but I will try it again. Both the 1224 and the 24i exhibit the inconsistencies.

Planet Paul

cputnam wrote on 2/25/2002, 7:02 AM

I have experienced this same scenario, with a drum tracking session the other day. Recording 6-7 tracks. Each recorded track was out of sync with the other, and with the original track. But even single instruments have been going out of sync over the course of a track.

This has been worst with Windows XP. I am using the M-Audio Delta 1010 interface on internal clock, no other digital devices. And a 1GHz PIII/512MB/ATA100 system. In general, XP has been more stable, and even sounds better than 98.

Anyway, after setting up the drumkit and finding that Vegas was not going to handle recording it, I decided to track all drums to analog tape. I striped SMPTE, and then printed a submix of each project to tape. Before recording, I played each one back with Vegas chasing SMPTE and I found no sync problems. I also created a new Vegas project for each song with just the stereo submix track, to make sure that track count was not an issue.

After the session, I went to transfer the analog tracks back into Vegas and found more sync problems. Although Vegas was set up to chase SMPTE, it drifted over the course of the song when recording new tracks. However, Vegas seemed to work better if it was just chasing without recording. Disabling simultaneous playback/record option did not change this. I tried this on both Win98SE and WinXP, Win98 being marginally better, but still not good.

So, sorry I can't post any solutions, but I think this at least shows it's not a problem restricted to your hardware.

Dide wrote on 2/25/2002, 9:52 AM

A Friend of my has the same problems.
He has other hardware then I, a Emu APS.
Also with other hardware we found the same problem(Wami rack and Sekd hardware)
Most of the times when try to sync Vegas with a other device or computer.
But if we sync it with other software there was no problem ??
I hope they fix this in the future!

Dide
The Netherlands

cputnam wrote on 2/25/2002, 1:03 PM

I tried this again under my WinXP setup. The strange thing is that while I was running the tape and recording back into Vegas, everything stayed perfectly in sync. I was monitoring the submix on both tape and vegas simultaneously and everything was good. But then I played back the Vegas recording and, as before, all the recorded tracks were out of sync with each other and the reference mix.

Which is essentially the same result I got originally just trying to record multiple new tracks into Vegas without syncing to anything external.

Very frustrating, because in other respects the XP setup works great. Hope SF can fix this.

Dide wrote on 2/25/2002, 2:03 PM

We have try eall the configuration settings in vegas(internal,external clock etc..)
And our problem is always that the sync at the start is ok but after a while he is drifting? only when we recording in sync from a other device.

is this the same with you ?

Dide

cputnam wrote on 2/25/2002, 5:22 PM

Start ok, then drift is what I get with Win98SE. The drift is evident while running Vegas as a slave. If you're recording several tracks while slaving, then they all drift off by the same amount, and stay locked to each other. Basically what you'd expect using the "trigger playback only" option.

Vegas on WinXP is different - while running Vegas as a slave, things sound like they are in sync - i.e. vegas playback is locked to the master. But playing back the recorded tracks reveals major problems, each track being out of sync with the others, and the master. Completely useless. And as I said before, I got this symptom recording several tracks at once WITHOUT even trying to slave to SMPTE. Which is why I was using the tape recorder in the first place!

Finally, I gave up on Vegas for this job, and used Logic Audio 4.8, (under WinXP on the same machine) and it worked flawlessly. Voila.

Dide wrote on 2/25/2002, 6:01 PM

Vegas is the master and each track is drifting on his own.
A sequenser or a HD2496 is the slave, recording 1 or 2 tracks at the time.
And also on all frame sync.
With different midiinterface or audiohardware with or without wordclock.
Same problem ?

Maybe Win98SE is the problem ... i don't know ?
But with other software like logic or cubase on 98 ..no problem.
But what i said before: i didn't try it with VV3.0 yet!!!only with the last version og VA2.0

pwppch wrote on 2/25/2002, 6:57 PM

Let me see if I get the problems being discussed here:

1. When setting up Vegas to trigger - Vegas triggers only, it does not chase incomming MTC/timecode - Vegas looses sync over time.
Q: Are the master and Vegas locked using a common word clock?

2. When recording new material against existing material, the new material is off/out of sync with the exsting material after the record.
Q: If you are recording multiple tracks, are they all offset by the same amount or are they different?
Q: Do they start in sync, but then loose sync?

Thanks
Peter

foxngrape wrote on 2/27/2002, 7:49 AM

I have this problem within the program itself. Sometimes the tracks will pull out of sync with each other. In fact, there are times that I am looking at the kick and snare wavs and the sound does not match the visual (making sound in the silent spaces and no sound where the wav is). If I stop the computer or reboot, it sometimes fixes this but what a pain when someone is overdubbing and they pull apart.

I'm not syncing this to anything and having this problem. Anyone else experience this?

Dide wrote on 2/27/2002, 10:06 AM

Q: Are the master and Vegas locked using a common word clock?
A: Yes

Q: If you are recording multiple tracks, are they all offset by the same amount or are they different?
A: Same Amount

Q: Do they start in sync, but then loose sync?
A: Sometimes at start in sync but most of the times some out sync.

jbrazier wrote on 2/27/2002, 1:09 PM

I've noticed this a bit. Tracks seem to 'drift' at times. I found myself zooming way in and looking at the wave patterns to get things back on track. Seems like the more editing you do, the more the possiblity arises that something will get moved around.

jbrazier wrote on 2/27/2002, 1:17 PM

I just remembered. I know what you guys are talking about when you say it starts out fine and drifts more and more until the end. A lot of this has to do with how fast you're HDD is and your memory path to the processor. I've noticed this, especially when I'm recording like 8 tracks of drums while I'm playing back the click track (same thing with recording guitar while playing back the drum mix). I'm not sure how to solve it. I've basically just been mixing drums to their own track just for the recording phase for everything after drums. I reload the original tracks into vegas when i do the mixdown and mastering phase. Anyone else with ideas?

cputnam wrote on 2/28/2002, 8:26 PM

This is definitely a consistently reproducable problem that I now realize is the norm, on WinXP anyway.

I did a test the other day before a tracking session, just recording my voice singing along with a 4 minute song from beginning to end. No external sync, just Vegas standalone. When I went to play back the recording, I could clearly see that the recorded waveform ended several seconds earlier than where I knew I had stopped singing. (Suffice to say that I immediately prepared my analog multitrack for the session.)

It was almost as if it had been time compressed. Pitch was fine, but as the song progressed, my recording became further and further ahead of the beat until it was at least a full measure ahead. I know that this has happened many times before, and unfortunately initially, I thought that musicians and singers were out of time and made them re-do takes.

I have noticed that, while recording, you can actually see this happening. As Vegas draws the waveform, you can see right-hand edge of the waveform lag further behind the current position "cursor" as it moves through the song.

I tested this using several different driver latency options. It seems that the longer the latency, the worse the problem. At the lowest settings for my Delta 1010, the recorded track is a few milliseconds off after 4 minutes. At higher latencies, it's seconds off, and I also get an audible clicking all the way through the track.

I did not get the same problem under Win98SE (dual boot, same computer), I just get different problems. And I don't like relying on Win98 for anything like critical tracking. Oh, and of course the SMPTE sync doesn't work properly under 98 either, but at least all the recorded tracks stay in sync with each other and the rest of the track.

FWIW, my system is a Abit BX133RAID/PIII 1GHz/512MB PC133 Micron RAM/60GB IBM ATA100 dedicated audio drive/AGP video/M-Audio Delta 1010.

The projects are all 24-bit/48kHz.

If anyone finds a solution, or hears from SF tech support on this, it would be great to hear from you!! Thanks.

pauly wrote on 3/1/2002, 10:38 AM

All you need is a master clock........with all of the different digital exchanges......you need a reference! I had this problem once........I now set my clock source to whatever I am recording from....i.e. adat clock and have NO problems when recording into Vegas..(while Locked to Timecode)

Paul

cputnam wrote on 3/1/2002, 4:48 PM

Thanks for the input.
Actually, in this case, I was trying to sync an analog multitrack to Vegas. There are no other digital audio references in the system. And the analog deck is the master in this setup, since it does not have a synchronizer and cannot chase SMPTE. I know that analog/digital sync is never easy, especially with analog as master, so I'm prepared to just wing it, and manually position the tracks this time, then start looking for a better DAW.

I don't really want to buy more hardware to solve this problem, since I would not have been using the analog tape in the first place if Vegas had been able to record multiple tracks in sync under WinXP. (Using ONLY INTERNAL clock, no other synced devices - analog or digital. Which is the problem reported by the poster who began this thread, and verified by others.)

Cheers,
Chris

dmbrecords wrote on 3/1/2002, 5:32 PM

Hi eveyone... I just read this whole section on this topic, (beacuse I had the same problem!!!!)... Well... I FOUND the FIX!!!!! (at least for me.) I adjusted alot of things at once, so I'm not really sure as to what EXACT one thing fixed it, but here we go anyways///I found that the record latency might be the problem. The higher I set mine the better the synced tracks turned out. I record 6 tracks for drums at a time, and they usually were way out of sync by the end of the recording. (like 6-10 ms). I Use XP by the way . I also dont use the WDM or whatever drivers.. I disabled them in the control panel...That was the main CULPRIT I think. Also, disable your Virus scanner and ethernet card...very important. Disable any drivers that are unnecessary (such as video game bullshit drivers that are used for 3d). Also Use your computer as the Master clock! Use interpolate setiings of 16 for playback under advanced properties for each and every channel of PLAYBACK ONLY!. Set all record latency settings for each channell to 32, and make sure that the " do not preroll buffers" for each playback channel is selected, as this will caude the tracks to playback out of sync. I also reserved each IRQ slot in the BIOS and set my PCI Latency to 64 and that helped out alot! For some reason... I found out that it really is a conflict between your video drivers and your Vegas drivers. My tracks would lose sync everytime my screen switched to follow the cursor as it went to the edge of the page and on to th next page when I was recording. Also If I zoomed in or out when I was recording or playing it would lose sync. In all honesty, I don't claim to know a damn thing about computers or software, other than VEGAS SUCKS!!!! I have used this program for 2 years, and I think I have spent more time fighting with it to cooperate /as my clients wait with headphones on in the live room,/ than actually using it to record. I wish I would've bought Logic instead, and I still may if it acts up again. XP is GREAT! I love it, but it doesn't like vegas too much unless the settings are absolutely perfect to it's liking. ONE LAST THING!!!..... MAKE SURE YOUR TEMP FILE (PREFRENCES/FIRST SCREEN IT SHOWS YOU AT THE BOTTOM UNDER THE "GENERAL " TAB) IS A FOLDER THAT IS ON THE SAME DRIVE AS YOU ARE RECORDING TOO...NOT YOUR "C" DRIVE OR WHICHEVER ONE HAS YOUR PROGRAM FILES ON IT. THIS CAUSED MY TRACKS TO RUN OUT OF TEMP SPACE WHILE RECORDING, SO EACH TRACK ISNT AS STABLE AND ACURATE WHILE RECORDING LONG TRACKS. I hope my rambling on has helped a little. Good luck, and if you need my exact settings, E-mail me AT dbolea@rochester.rr.com. I will do my best to help anyone as long as they promise not to fly airplanes into skyscrapers. PEACE!!!!

JoeD wrote on 3/1/2002, 6:00 PM

dumb records?

Vegas doesn't suck as far as this problem goes (SF marketing sucks though) - you should see the drift in Sonar and dual delta 1010's in XP.

You also never name your soundcard, drivers, system...nothing. So your post isn't even comprehensible. Slow down and make a little sense with your "fix" so others can try it.

Please dmbrecords, list all changes you made to the system and Vegas EXACTLY to create a "fix" for this. What you rattled off makes no sense to people without the specifics.

Really though, I see drift as well in XP/W2K...VERY rarely with Win98se.

People, I feel win98se is still the best OS for A/V nuts. 2k and XP have a way to go - but even moreso, the soundcard manufac drivers for XP/2k os have a LONG way to go.

I hear RME is leading the pack in quality drivers.

JoeD

dmbrecords wrote on 3/1/2002, 6:30 PM

I'm sorry Joe... you're right, I should've slowed down and told you what I use for a system....BUT.. that's no reason to go bashing me! I have a morning session in my studio here tomorrow, and I have alot of work to do before then...I was just trying to help out with OBVIOUS settings that are one click away that really don't matter what system I USE! These are (for the most part) settings used between vegas and windows XP...not my soundcard. But since you wanted to know..
intel pentium 3 processor
(800Mhz)
(2) 10,000 rpm scuzzies (formated to roughly 13 gigs) (minus the C partition for program files)
Adaptec raid
soundscape mixtreme card... not really a sound card. (more or less an interface)
ATI all in wonder Video Card
SB 5.1 (creative LIVE) sound card (disabled...of course)
ethernet card (not sure on make)
mitsui burner
80 gig IDE drive for storage of sessions.
and ohh ya...a whole lotta balls.
There are you happy JOE?
(notice... I could've stooped to your pathetic level and called you a name other than JOE right there...but some of us are kind people who know that success comes from the help of others).

I posted that so that if anyone needed help with thier settings, they could e-mail me and I would walk them thru it... It does work great now, so if anyone else out there (besides you joe) needs help...e-mail me... remember... what goes around comes around. Good luck .. dbolea@rochester.rr.com

JoeD wrote on 3/1/2002, 7:45 PM

ready for more "bashing" then (i hardly call it that but whatever floats your boat)?

Finish the rest of the details:
- exact changes you made (first calm down, then slow down and type out in list form if you really have an answer for others)

btw: If that is the name of your company (dmb records) then I would seriously rethink a name. It's DUMB. My comment was on THAT NAME and how it reads to john q kiddo...not you Mr. paranoia.

Man, this message board (sf) lays host to some amatuer born replies.
List complete details to back up your post.

(ie - "well...it works great for me after I made changes" - cue the dopey music)

JoeD

pelvis wrote on 3/1/2002, 8:36 PM

Now's when we can really use your expert opinion, Mr. JoeD:

If I want to record/edit/mix in Vegas, what in your opinion is the ideal setup- OS, sound card, drivers, drives, plug-ins, IRQs, speakers, mics, all of it- what do I get?

JoeD wrote on 3/2/2002, 2:25 AM

ok.

PC based DAW (if you go mac - you just ante up and buy the dang thing. I prefer PC and building myself)

The system:

Hate to say it, but I would wait a little bit longer and see where the prices of the Northwood P4's are gonna go (or really...how low will they go).
Minimum: 2 ghz (although we all know many get by with a lot less - you're buying for a little future. K?)
Ram will be dictated by the mainboard (P4) that offers the best stability - which is also read: best chipset. Plan on 512-1gig.
It's not necessarily rdram either.

Note: I don't understand your "IRQ" in the list. The IRQ is inherent to the nature of the system - you do understand this right?

AMD lovers: Yes. I know you're AMD is working beautifully...but the fact is that Intel sits on the developers desk and STILL occupies over 80% of testbed scenarios (in-house or contracted). There is a degree of safety in travelling Intel - and in a DAW (at least my DAWS) that is important. Enough said.

Want a gamer/office box. AMD is just fine.

Storage:

I HIGHLY reccomend a hybrid setup of fast U160/320 fast SCSI drives (one for OS/apps and one for "record to" drive) COMBINED with a couple of the largest 7200 IDE (I like Maxtor) you can get...preferably in swappable bays.
This way you get MAX track count on wave audio "read" while having a solid base to still record more tracks to (IDE is great but it can't boast this at all).

CD-R:
Get a Plextor Burner if you're unsure.
I like scsi burners (but you can get away with IDEs nowadays).

Audio interface:

I use 2 delta 1010's in Win98se 4.1.22.27 driver. Does it sound and work great? Yes. Does it work great in W2k/XP? NO. (drivers STILL have issues - big ones).
Motu? - NO. Not with a PC DAW. In a word, Drivers (looked good at one time though).

So, I would have to steer you towards RME which "could" be pricier, especially as you choose to build to handle you're I/O needs (I need 16 in at one time minumum).
Solid (or "more" solid W2k/XP support and a family large enough to accompany your I/O needs.

On the flipside, although the future doesn't shine as bright, I have worked with the Paris system and loved it. Just bammm....get to work and get work done. But that's neither here nor there.

As for boards and pre's...well $ will dictate that.
A great board for the $: I use Mackie vlz pros as the XDR pres are VERY functional for my needs (Jazz/avant garde/funk/blues).

Monitors:
I use the (non-active) Tannoys with a Hafler amp. I like it..a lot (I can't say the same for the powered model however).
But still, I love the Mackie HR's....get 'em!
** a decent ROOM is what many never consider. Plan it as this is where your work is getting done.

Mics:
Can't go wrong with some shure 57's in your bag and a coupla MD 421s (Seinheiser).
Rode NTk, Beta52,D112, shure KSM-32s, of course your Nueman U87/47 if you can afford them, coupla Oktava MC-012s and or shure sm-81s. I have many of these mentioned.

Basically, this realm is up to you and your budget, I can go on and on. Just get some dynamics and some decent-great condensors and you should be able to start in getting work done.

Lastly:
The recording space. You have one? If separate get a good snake (whirlwind makes some nice ones. or...are you ready for the full on studio (ctrl room/rec area)?
This is where most decide to either try it or bag it as far as tracking several tracks. Just like mic placement - you've got to plan the space and know how to use/work it.

You also need to realize your needs..once you KNOW THAT most answers will fall into place (and maybe these suggestions won't even translate).

But ya know, if you're serious. You would get your rear over to www.prorec.com and ask the MANY pros who graciously offer help (I'm not gracious but I'm honest and to the point). This board is ...well....for newbies or video heads (uuugh) and way too pro SF product (see a fella named WVG. double uggh).

while you're at it, learn the chipsets (system) at www.anandtech.com as well. Not here.

You're asking in the wrong msg board.

gl,
JoeD