Preview and Pan/Crop Window Aspect Ratios Differ

Kurt Zaiser wrote on 6/30/2010, 8:27 AM
Hello everyone.

I have a dilemma I hope someone can help to clear up.

When working with footage from my Everio SD (GZ-MS100RUS 720x480 NTSC Widescreen) camcorder in Vegas Pro 8.1, footage that appears aspect-correct (16:9) in the Preview window is not displayed aspect-correct (4:3) in the Pan/Crop window. When I use 8.0x, both windows display the footage aspect-correct.

Here's exactly what I do using 8.1:

I first set the new Project Settings by choosing the 'match to file' folder icon option from the project settings icon in the Preview window. I find source footage I'll be using and select it and let Vegas fill in the Project Setting blanks. However, I always end up changing both PAR and field order from what Vegas gave me as default from its examination of the footage file [Note- I have to do this in 8.0x, as well], Next, when I drag the footage from the Explorer tab to the t/l, it is pillar-barred (4:3, squished) in the Preview window BUT IT IS 16:9 IN THE Pan/Crop Window! Then, I right-click the footage and change its Properties from PAR 0.909 to PAR 1.212 and the window view aspect ratios switch: the Preview window now shows 16:9 (normal looking footage) and the Pan/Crop window shows squished, pillar-barred footage. Nothing I try is able to make them use the same aspect ratio.

This problem makes masking a real pain. Any thoughts on whether this is a bug or operator error?

Thanks.

-Kurt

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 6/30/2010, 8:59 AM
Sounds at first glance like there may be some incorrect flags in your captured footage.
You should not have to change the media properties at all. DV NTSC Widescreen should be 720x480, LFF, 1.212 PAR
How are you capturing it?
Can you upload a clip somewhere for us to look at?
Kurt Zaiser wrote on 6/30/2010, 9:49 AM
I actually have two Everios - one is flash-only and one is HDD-based. In both cases, I pull the content via USB/file explorer to my local HDD. No other treatment is performed. My thinking was that this would be much better/faster than capturing from tape as I was in the market to replace my ancient, tape-based camcorder when I purchased Vegas Pro back in 2006/7.

Both camcorders play back widescreen when piped directly to my HD tv and the files play 16:9 using WMP or VLC.

Footage from my EX1 must be flagged correctly - I don't have this problem with any resolution MXF output from that camera.

When I get home tonight, I'll put a clip on my Google docs account and repost. Thank you for offering to help.

-Kurt
Kurt Zaiser wrote on 6/30/2010, 1:51 PM
Here is a link to a 15sec clip I just shot using the Everio:

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B7vaBzUAx3XNYWM4MjU3NWUtZTZkNC00Y2JmLWJkNTEtM2IxZjc3YTRkMTg3&hl=en&authkey=CJnLsyQ

If anyone can help determine why Vegas (1) sees it as PAR 0.909, upper field first when VLC and my TV sees it correctly as widescreen and, more importantly, (2) why the aspect ratios are different between the Pan/Crop & Preview windows with Vegas Pro 8.1 you would answer my prayers. Remember, once I correct the footage properties to PAR 1.212 in VP8.0, BOTH windows are aspect correct..but not VP8.1.

Thanks.

-Kurt
musicvid10 wrote on 6/30/2010, 2:11 PM
Vegas has some issues with MOD files.

I can confirm that if I change the Project Properties and Media Properties both to 1.2121, the preview and pan/crop displays are correct in Vegas 8.0c.

It looks like you've uncovered a second-tier bug of some sort in 8.1, but I can't confirm that.

I wonder what might happen if you left the Media Properties such that the pan/crop display is correct, and then uncheck the "Maintain Aspect Ratio" event switch? Although a kludge, is that a possible workaround?

You might download the 9.0e trial version and see how it works with your MOD files. I'm pretty certain there is no ongoing development support for 8.1.
Kurt Zaiser wrote on 6/30/2010, 3:49 PM
Well, your appreciated suggestion comes close to straightening things out: leaving everything as PAR 0.909, the Preview window is aspect-correct but the Pan/Crop window now is slightly letter-boxed (recall it had been pillar-boxed). Laying down a tight mask is still not possible as what I mask in the Pan/Crop window is not exactly what's masked in the Preview window.

I'm hesitant to jump to VP9e. Everything else (and, if I use 8.0 for masking 'everything else' becomes 'everything period') works perfectly with my current Vegas setup.

The combo of JVC's .MOD format and 8.1 don't see eye to eye. Que sera sera.

Thanks for taking time to help me, Musicvid.

-Kurt
FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 6/30/2010, 10:31 PM
The first thing you should do is set your project to the desired template. In your case NTSC DV widescreen (720.....

When you now add footage to the timeline you will notice in the Event Pan/Crop window that it might not match the PAR of your project. Simply right click the event and select "Match Output Aspect". If you have a whole timeline of mis matched PAR then select the first clip and right click and "select events to end" then select "Match Output Event"

I'm not sure if you can do this automatically.

Kurt Zaiser wrote on 7/1/2010, 6:02 PM
Thank you for the advice.

I just tried it and still have the same problem: When I use the "NTSC Widescreen" template to initialize the project and then drag in the footage, the Preview Window shows as pillar-barred, 4:3 - everybody's tall and thin. The Pan/Crop Window is close to being correct (16:9) but it has thin, black bars above and below the footage. To fix the Preview Window, I right-click the footage and change the PAR frmo 0.909 to 1.212 and then the Preview Window is fine. But, the Pan/Crop Window remains exactly the same. So, when I try to mask a very specific area, it becomes displaced in the Preview Window.

This must be a bug in 8.1 when dealing with JVC's .MOD format as 8.0a/c works perfectly.

Thanks for the help folks. If you can think of anything else, please advise. In the meantime, it's back to 8.0c when masking.

-Kurt

musicvid10 wrote on 7/1/2010, 8:52 PM
Unfortunately, the "match media aspect" and "match output aspect" don't work right when the aspect flags are misreported (or misread). Discovered that a while back.

--> One last thought, kind of a "default" properties setting to try (for both your media and project):

Pixel aspect 1:1, frame size 853x480 (or 854x480).

That's what we do with AVI and MOV formats that don't understand PAR.
Kurt Zaiser wrote on 7/1/2010, 9:45 PM
Musicvid, I tried what you suggested. Unfortunately, the footage is now slightly pillar-boxed in both windows. Doubly unfortunate is that the amount of pillar-barring must not be equivalent as a tight mask is still displaced to the right in the Preview compared to where I draw it in the Pan/Crop window.

You might be on to something, though. I'll play with the horizontal project and media dimension and see if I make progress.

Thanks.

-Kurt