Print to Tape quality...loss or not

dhamma wrote on 5/10/2002, 9:24 AM
Hi,

Is there any loss capturing MiniDV to the computer as .avi file?

Then my other question: is there any loss printing to tape from VF.

When I watch what I have printed to tape the quality looks very good to my eye.

But, just wondering if there is in fact any loss of data from Capturing, editing then printing back to Mini DV tape?

Thanks.

Comments

johnmeyer wrote on 5/10/2002, 11:33 AM
There is absolutely no loss at all capturing DV through 1394/firewire connection to a computer file. It is bit-for-bit identical. When editing in VF, there is some quality loss whenever new video must be created. Supposedly, according to Sonic Foundry support people in other posts, if you merely trim and rearrange your footage (i.e., you don't make any changes that would cause any pixel in a frame to change), then the video is not changed and is identical when you print to tape. Thus, in most editing, parts of your project are unchanged (those that are merely trimmed or moved to a different place on the timeline) and some are changed (transitisions, title overlays, special FX, etc.). In this case, parts of the project will have some quality loss.

You can find dozens, perhaps hundreds, of posts about this subject both on this forum and on the Usenet groups. Many people have done tests where they capture video, make a trivial change to force the software to re-compress the footage, and then print it back to tape. They then recapture that footage and repeat the process. They then compare the original with the first, second, third ... and nth generation copy and report on where they can begin to see a difference. With the standard Microsoft codec (which is what VF uses), most users say they can spot a difference after only 2-3 generations. What this says, however, is that if you only capture and edit once (which most of us do), the quality loss is inperceptible.

If you are quality obsessed, you can upgrade to Vegas which has its own codec which is both faster and better quality, or you can purchase the Mainconcept codec for $50. Some users report no visible degradation even after half a dozens generations when using the Mainconcept codec. Here is one such comparison Generation Loss.

John
dhamma wrote on 5/10/2002, 8:17 PM
Well, as always, Johnmeyer, you're very very helpful!!! When I see your name I go to that post! I know I will learn something! Thank you for taking the time to help.


Well, in fact I didn't alter my video at all. i just added some music to it and discarded the original recording. The print to tape looked great to me!

Now, (ignorant me!) I thought VF already had the MainConcept codec. I guess I got my info wrong.

So, one last question. Is an uncompressed .avi file therefore a bit-for-bit accurate copy of what comes from my MiniDV cam? And if so, when it prints to tape, is it just "rendering" into an uncompressed .avi file (it's called NTSC DV...but is the real file just an uncompressed .avi?)


johnmeyer wrote on 5/12/2002, 7:22 PM
DV video that comes from your camera (or gets printed back to your camera) is compressed. This compression is what causes the loss in quality from one generation to another (DV compression is "lossy" which means bits are thown away). For each frame of video, if your editing causes even one pixel to be changed, that frame of video must be uncompressed in order to get at the bit(s) that must be changed, and then it must be re-compressed after the bits are changed in order to get the video back into DV format so it can be sent back to your camera and stored on tape.

It is true that you can choose to save the results of your video editing using the "default template (uncompressed)" in order to avoid any loss when saving the results of your editing. However, because this file is not compressed, it will be HUGE (only a few minutes will fit in the same disk space that normally holds an hour's worth of DV video), and you won't be able to do much with it (you can't send it back to DV tape).

Thus, the NTSC DV template causes the AVI file that results from your editing to be saved in the DV compressed format, whereas saving in uncompressed format does not use compression.

If you merely rearrange the video on the timeline, the bits from the input file are never uncompressed, but are merely moved around in time to match the order of events in your timeline, and then simply copied to the output file.

My recommendation: Save your video using the NTSC DV template (or PAL if you live in Europe) and don't worry about any minor loss in quality. If you can't stand any loss in quality, purchase and install the Mainconcept DV codec or upgrade to Vegas Video.

John