Pro titler frustration

sellavision wrote on 10/10/2009, 4:31 PM
Trying to use the curves, collections, effects and gradients options in pro titler, I get totally lost. I cant get the effects and gradients options to do anything, and when I try to add the collections effects, I cant figure out how to replace the descriptive words with the text I actually want to use. I can delete and replace the words, but the effect does not work on the new verbaige. Im very new to Pro 9, so perhaps I am missing something obvious ?

Comments

Grazie wrote on 10/11/2009, 12:28 AM
Im very new to Pro 9, so perhaps I am missing

"Something obvious" is not a phrase I'd use in connection with PTT. All what you ask is achievable and PTT truly is very powerful. However, and IMO, it hides its user-abilities, under the weight of functionability, which in turn, has been presented in an all too innocently appearing/looking GUI. Meaning, it appears simple but doesn't logically follow what I'd expect to happen. But, and here's the irony, it has attempted to do something quite courageous: Bring together a graphical interpretation of time and spatial orientation of the "text" in a single, simple graphical parameter called a "curve". That's what I've learnt from using PTT.

Just to assist you on one of your quests: ".. how to replace the descriptive words" I guess you are meaning you want to re-"Name" a collection? Just double click on its "name" and enter your own description.

My advice to you? Take a deep breath, get a cup of tea, or whatever, and slowly read the Vegas Online Help on PTT; see some of the YouTube (?) Tutorials - they are out there and just try one function at a time and grow your PTT skills-set. Give yourself time. And again, here is the second observation I've made, this is not the usual Vegas-User's experience with that of using Vegas itself. Vegas is mostly easy to use and to get results quickly, almost as easy to use as a word processor or the better/easier Graphics packages. So when a Vegas User comes to PTT, that same User expects to have the same ease - well I did! - and it's not.

You are not alone . . .

TIP: Have the PTT Event run on a Loop so you can immediately observe the effect of you making changes. PTT excels in allowing us to make real time decisions and see the results, well it should, after all "Text" IS kinda essential when one wants to get one's message across? Pity that this simple clear vision had not come through to the PTT GUI Front-end - and that IS ironic? Don't you think?

Grazie
PeterWright wrote on 10/11/2009, 1:40 AM
Yes, good post Grazie,

Although I have from time to time done some quite spectacular things with the new Pro Titler, it's way of doing things is so different from the classic "Vegas way" that I can't always remember how I did it, and unless I have oodles of time - which these days I don't, I tend to use the good ole Standard Titler.
Anything I've done with Pro Titler has always been my indulgence rather that client driven, so it's never been a problem, but I do wish it was easier to use.
Chienworks wrote on 10/11/2009, 4:33 AM
I have a confession to make:

I spent an evening playing with the Pro Type Titler. At the end of the evening, even with reading the help pages, i was unable to have anything other than "sample text" appear in my output.

I gave up. I have better things to do with my life. I've never even looked at PTT since then.
farss wrote on 10/11/2009, 5:07 AM
I just went back and tried to fall in love with PT. It has some goodness in it, Open Type support is excellent.

So I set myself a task that I'd managed to nut out sometime ago in AE without watching or reading. Create a path and make text flow along it. This was easy, in part because it joins modules that work much the same as the bits in Vegas.

I had to consult the online help to even get started in PT. I expected a pen tool to draw a path. I expected to be able to draw that path on my canvas. Yes, PT is very capable but I fear the lack of a painterly way of working will discourage most from ever plumbing its depths.
Having created the path and massaged it (not exactly easy) it is lost to the rest of Vegas. All the work sits there trapped inside the PT generator. I have to create another path to move something else using Track Motion. I am doing the work for the machine.

In all fairness to the person who wrote PT I suspect his hands were tied. It'd need work inside of Vegas to get a more usable tool. We'd need to be able to create a path and connect text and track motion to that path. Then we would be cooking.

Bob.
Fredouillelafripouille wrote on 10/11/2009, 5:46 AM
Hi,

sellavision problem's is not to rename a collection but reUSE a collection, changing the text in this collection. For that, problems come if you have a "cascade sur les caractères" (in french, do not know english translation. Something about "characters" animation...).
So, I have found a possibility in order to reuse collection : do not replace ALL the text, keep the first character !
1) enter in the edit mode, replace the text other than the first character
2) select only the first character
3) change his ALPHA color settings to zero
4) for presentation problems (if multiple lines), you could too decrease the size of this charcter to 0.2 (the min value possible).

This method is the only one if found in order to use collections... It works well but not always (depend on the complexity of the animation).

It's realy painful this great tool is so bad programmed... Sony should take care of that...

Here is a small demo of this tip (pwd : PTT_Demo)
Tech Diver wrote on 10/11/2009, 6:31 AM
On a slightly different topic, it has really bothered me how the Vegas Pro interface has grown more schizophrenic. That is, up through version 7 we have had great consistency, but then ProType Titler came along with its own interface followed by the Glint/Sparkle/Rays Radiance effects that were aquired from Velvet Matter. I hope this trend will not continue and that consistency will return in one form or another.

Peter
Arthur.S wrote on 10/11/2009, 6:40 AM
I could never understand the point of a titler within Vegas that works in such a completely different way. The key framing for example. I spent so much time working it out it was criminal. (And then promptly forgot it :-( ) How about abandoning 'point size' for the font, in favour of the sledgehammer approach of a slider? Baffling. I do prefer the cleaner looking interface to the original, so use it for all of my titling, but any animation is done using pan/crop or track motion. Just sooooooooooo much quicker!
Ros wrote on 10/11/2009, 7:15 AM
Also in PPP, there is no eyedropper tool "pick color from screen" which you have in the standard titler.

This makes PPP almost useless in my case.

Rob
Andy_L wrote on 10/11/2009, 7:33 AM
Wow - I tried PTT once and thought it made no sense whatsoever. It's nice to know I'm not the only one. :)
TeetimeNC wrote on 10/11/2009, 7:45 AM
Also in PPP, there is no eyedropper tool "pick color from screen" which you have in the standard titler. This makes PPP almost useless in my case.

AGREE, amazing oversight. Another less serious item: In the original titler you can feather the outline (or stroke) which I find really useful. Can't do this in PTT.

For me, every time I use PTT or DVDA I feel like I have to relearn the interface because they are unintuitive, with little or no relationship to the requisite workflow.

Jerry
Fredouillelafripouille wrote on 10/11/2009, 7:56 AM
Another less serious item: In the original titler you can feather the outline (or stroke) which I find really useful. Can't do this in PTT.

Yes you can !! (if I good understand).
See in my demo : seek "Couleur de frappe" and "Largeur de frappe" at 1:35
TeetimeNC wrote on 10/11/2009, 8:48 AM
See in my demo : seek "Couleur de frappe" and "Largeur de frappe" at 1:35

Your demo is password protected :(
Fredouillelafripouille wrote on 10/11/2009, 8:51 AM
Yes, and pwd is a few post higher... ;-)

-> PTT_Demo
johnmeyer wrote on 10/11/2009, 8:55 AM
As someone who has spent his life in the computer software business, I would like to add that the Protype Titler has one of the worst and most difficult-to-use interfaces of any piece of software I have ever used.

Ever.

There is some software that is difficult to learn, but once mastered, is exceedingly easy to use. Wordstar was the best example in the early days of the PC. For some of you who came from other programs, perhaps Vegas is another good example: its way of doing things is foreign to a person trained on other software. However, once you get your head around Vegas, it is very easy to use and the workflow can be quite fast.

Unfortunately, nothing about the Pro Titler makes any sense. It is just plain awful. How Sony could have done something so bad, given that there are so many good ideas in other programs to "steal" from, is a mystery to me. Unfortunately, I doubt that it is on their list of things to fix. As with so many other threads on this subject, I am sure various people will give recommendations on better titlers to use, and this is certainly what I would recommend if you want a title that looks like it was created in this century (the basic titler in Vegas produces results that are decidedly late 1980s early 1990s). Too bad, because good titles are pretty basic to most productions.

I guess some would argue that titling doesn't necessarily belong in an editing program, and such arguments are always legitimate (where DO you draw the line on what features to include?), but I've always expected to be able to do titles within the editor itself.
jdv group wrote on 10/11/2009, 9:49 AM
I have to agree with most of you regarding its ease of use. I would recommend getting a copy of VASST "Mastering the Pro Type Titler" DVD. Douglas Spotted Eagle takes you through it quite well and it helped me a lot.
Tech Diver wrote on 10/11/2009, 11:20 AM
Granted it is expensive, but I am very happy with the titling software in the Boris Red plugin. It is essentially the Boris Graffiti plugin with additional features (like true 3D interaction with other objects). I don't bother using PTT at all.

Peter
TeetimeNC wrote on 10/12/2009, 5:43 AM
Unfortunately, I doubt that it is on their list of things to fix.

John, unfortunately SCS's track record has been that the things peripheral to the Vegas core (other than DVDA) seem to get very little attention after the initial release. in addition to PTT, Cinescore, Media Manager and Network Render come to mind. Microsoft is often criticized for their lame initial releases, but they frequently continue refining the product until they get it right.

In fairness to SCS, I'm sure it is difficult priortizing limited resources when the world keeps changing around you (e.g., DV->HDV->AVCHD, etc.). But the titler is a long running sore spot for so many Vegas users.

Jerry
Marc S wrote on 10/12/2009, 11:11 AM
"I would recommend getting a copy of VASST "Mastering the Pro Type Titler" DVD."

I'm sure the DVD is great but why do I have to buy it to figure out how to use the program? The Sony help file on PTT is almost useless. So not only did they create a difficult to understand program they left us without a useful help file to learn it.

One thing about Adobe is they flood the internet with tutorials on how to use their programs. Sony would gain a lot of new users if they took some of the mystery out of using their software and spent a little money getting free tutorials online.
farss wrote on 10/12/2009, 1:45 PM
Having gotten my head around PT it's not that bad but it if you don't understand it, it could be a world of pain.
The text object(s) contain all the parameters for that text. Delete the text object and everything contained by the object is lost. Child text objects can be created which inherit the parameters of the parent object. This a very structured approach that unfortunately is not how the artistic mind works at all. It's also vector based which is good, text quality should be excellent, it appears GPU accelerated which is also good. I don't know if it can handle bitmapped fonts.

I had a problem with it whilst playing with it in V9.0b. It crashed and took the whole show down. Not that big a deal, AE does the odd dummy spit too. Even if using PT with Vegas to create titles for my money it makes a lot of sense to do the titles in their own project and render them out and comp them into the main project. I have remarkably few issues with Vegas, even V9.0. I'm pretty certain part of my luck comes from keeping my main edit project very simple. The messy bits I do in AE, if AE splits the dummy or a complex Vegas project were to get corrupted I'm not in panic mode as deadlines approach. I've as soon as possible got the basic cut ready to show the client.

Bob.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 10/12/2009, 2:47 PM

"I gave up. I have better things to do with my life. I've never even looked at PTT since then."

Kelly, you'll never know how much you've made my day!

And I'd be curious to know who is/was responsible for PTT.


ingvarai wrote on 10/12/2009, 3:30 PM
John:

Yes, indeed. To me, it PPT looks like a piece of software from outer space, that just happens to run on our PCs. But made by aliens, with a completely different mindset. When I right-click something in an application on a PC, I expect a popup menu. But in outer space they maybe do not even have mice, not to mention a right mouse button, for what I know.

I have wasted so many hours trying to make PPT do the most basic things, that I have become frightened, scared, by the thought of making titles and text - just because of PPT.

ingvarai
Sidecar2 wrote on 10/12/2009, 5:04 PM
Speaking of non-Vegas-like functionality....

True story: I was at a trade show and a Boris guy was sitting in his cube waiting for customers to come by. The cube was empty.

I complained to him that very few of our editors have been able to figure out Boris which, in this case, is the graphics package for Media 100, though a lighter version is available for Vegas.

Anyway, I told him Boris is very confusing; that it seemingly has a dozen windows that all open at once; that I didn't know where to start; that I didn't know what the little buttons did; that it was so frustrating to use; that we needed training to use it; etc.

He looked right at me and said, "EVERYBODY tells me this, but it isn't true!"

That is the very definition of programmers requiring users to think like programmers instead of regular people who simply want to get a cool effect with minimum effort. If everybody tells you something, don't you think there may be a problem?

Pro Titler in Vegas is a bit like that.

I took to Vegas in no time flat. Pro Titler is taking significantly longer....
Rory Cooper wrote on 10/13/2009, 2:06 AM
PTT shortfall and other text editors is markers, we need to see the markers from time line reflected in the text editor
MarkWWWW wrote on 10/13/2009, 6:03 AM
When it was first released there was a rumour that PTT had been written for Sony by Velvet Matter (who also wrote the Radiance video FX plugins that were bought in by Sony and included in the latest version of Vegas).

I believe the rumour to be true but I don't think it has ever been officially confirmed (or denied).

Mark