Yes, Forge does not yet support 24 bit and in you case cannot be used
with Vegas 24 bit projects. Forge will be updated to 24 bit support
soon. I have no release date.

Peter


Jaergo Wvtrysen wrote:
>>It's been mentioned before here that Soundforge can be used
>>in conjunction with Vegas. I do all my stuff at 24bit 48k,
>>and SF doesn't support 24bit. Any new developments in the
>>works?

Ive experienced this same problem and thought that maybe I just
wasn't doing something right. I had four busses active so I must have
lost 6 db. Also, it appeared as if the gain loss wasn't 'broadband',
or distributed evenly across all tracks. After normalization I had
to do some fairly radical multiband compression in Sound Forge to
return the intended low freqeuncy content.

This is a nasty bug. I know one studio owner/producer who deleted
his demo version because of this problem and will not consider using
Vegas until this is fixed. I am luckily just doing demo and
songwriting right now but consider this a showstopper for production
purposes. I don't want to 'normalize' a final mix that radically.

Do we all just run our final mixes 3 or more db high for now? If we
run a mix into the red will it fix itself when mixed down to two
tracks, or will the saturation still be there? I hope that the fix
for this appears as a patch soon. This can't wait until a new
release in my opinion.

Erich Gruber




Peter Haller wrote:
>>The main bus meters are accurate during realtime playback.
>>
>>We recently discovered the mix to new/save as file problem. There
is
>>a 3dB gain reduction per bus pair when mixing down. (1 - 2 buses
>>cause a 3 dB reduction, 2-4 buses cause a 6 dB reduction, etc.) We
>>have a fix. Not sure when it will be available.
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>
>>Jaergo Wvtrysen wrote:
>>>>How do I actually see what my real output level of an event
>>>>is? I'm not recording to an external device, just the hard
>>>>drive, so is 'Bus A' an accurate representation of what my
>>>>levels really are? Sometimes I'll mix down two tracks to one
>>>>and after it's mixed, I find the levels arent what I'd
>>>>hoped. Too low, usually.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks in advance.

Not sure I follow you on the broadband comment. The gain reduction
was across the main busses. So how much a particular track is
effected would depend on how it was assigned to the busses.

The fix should be part of the international release that we will be
making shortly. I am checking on this.

Peter

Erich Grube wrote:
>>
>>Ive experienced this same problem and thought that maybe I just
>>wasn't doing something right. I had four busses active so I must
have
>>lost 6 db. Also, it appeared as if the gain loss
wasn't 'broadband',
>>or distributed evenly across all tracks. After normalization I had
>>to do some fairly radical multiband compression in Sound Forge to
>>return the intended low freqeuncy content.
>>
>>This is a nasty bug. I know one studio owner/producer who deleted
>>his demo version because of this problem and will not consider
using
>>Vegas until this is fixed. I am luckily just doing demo and
>>songwriting right now but consider this a showstopper for
production
>>purposes. I don't want to 'normalize' a final mix that radically.
>>
>>Do we all just run our final mixes 3 or more db high for now? If we
>>run a mix into the red will it fix itself when mixed down to two
>>tracks, or will the saturation still be there? I hope that the fix
>>for this appears as a patch soon. This can't wait until a new
>>release in my opinion.
>>
>>Erich Gruber
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Peter Haller wrote:
>>>>The main bus meters are accurate during realtime playback.
>>>>
>>>>We recently discovered the mix to new/save as file problem. There
>>is
>>>>a 3dB gain reduction per bus pair when mixing down. (1 - 2 buses
>>>>cause a 3 dB reduction, 2-4 buses cause a 6 dB reduction, etc.)
We
>>>>have a fix. Not sure when it will be available.
>>>>
>>>>Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Jaergo Wvtrysen wrote:
>>>>>>How do I actually see what my real output level of an event
>>>>>>is? I'm not recording to an external device, just the hard
>>>>>>drive, so is 'Bus A' an accurate representation of what my
>>>>>>levels really are? Sometimes I'll mix down two tracks to one
>>>>>>and after it's mixed, I find the levels arent what I'd
>>>>>>hoped. Too low, usually.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks in advance.

I can certainly see where this could be a problem for a project
facility with no console and limited I/O. However, a "studio
owner/producer" worth his salt and doing commercial work would surely
have a control surface of some type and shouldn't let that stop him
from using Vegas. There are many ways to use VP where this doesn't
even come into play. Being a commercial facility with a 48 input
console and a full array of outboard effects, we assign Vegas bus
outputs to a MOTU system and thence into the console -- this is where
Vegas really shines for us -- and this so called showstopping, "nasty
bug" doesn't even come into play. :)

KAC...


Erich Grube wrote:

>>This is a nasty bug. I know one studio owner/producer who deleted
his demo version because of this problem and will not consider using
Vegas until this is fixed.>>

Aaaaahhhhaaaa!!!!! This explains me pulling my hair out for the past
2 days trying to figure out why my tracks,when rendered as a single
master file, come way short if the original volume level...About 6db!
I've since gone back to using CEP for my tracking purposes because of
this bug. Not only because of the no-loss in dbs on final mixdown,
but also I've found that when I save down a 24bit 44.1 file to 16bit
for CD production, the quality is not nearly as good as saving down
the same 24bit 44.1 file in CEP to 16bit. I hope the fix is coming
soon!


James

The Vegas Pro update 1.0b is available in the downloads section. This
has a fix for the rendering problem.

How are you determining/defining the 'quaility' of the conversion
from 24 to 16 bit?

Peter


James Johnson wrote:
>>Aaaaahhhhaaaa!!!!! This explains me pulling my hair out for the
past
>>2 days trying to figure out why my tracks,when rendered as a single
>>master file, come way short if the original volume level...About
6db!
>>I've since gone back to using CEP for my tracking purposes because
of
>>this bug. Not only because of the no-loss in dbs on final mixdown,
>>but also I've found that when I save down a 24bit 44.1 file to
16bit
>>for CD production, the quality is not nearly as good as saving down
>>the same 24bit 44.1 file in CEP to 16bit. I hope the fix is coming
>>soon!
>>
>>
>>James

Karl,
Vegas really shines for me also, but I have concerns about a product
whose final mix isn't a final mix. To route the 2 track mix back
through a console (I have one) to make up for lost gain is NOT in my
opinion acceptable (I'm not interested in raising the noise floor on
any of my mixes unecessarily), nor is any sort of gain make up in the
digital domain. Maybe you took exception to my choice of adjectives?

Thanks for the reply!

Erich Gruber

Karl Caillouet wrote:
>>I can certainly see where this could be a problem for a project
>>facility with no console and limited I/O. However, a "studio
>>owner/producer" worth his salt and doing commercial work would
surely
>>have a control surface of some type and shouldn't let that stop him
>>from using Vegas. There are many ways to use VP where this doesn't
>>even come into play. Being a commercial facility with a 48 input
>>console and a full array of outboard effects, we assign Vegas bus
>>outputs to a MOTU system and thence into the console -- this is
where
>>Vegas really shines for us -- and this so called
showstopping, "nasty
>>bug" doesn't even come into play. :)
>>
>>KAC...
>>
>>
>>Erich Grube wrote:
>>
>>>>This is a nasty bug. I know one studio owner/producer who
deleted
>>his demo version because of this problem and will not consider
using
>>Vegas until this is fixed.>>

Thanks for the reply. Hope I didn't sound like someone that is
unsatisfied w/the product. I love Vegas, but was very disapointed
with my first mixdown because of this problem. I am encouraged that
your team has a fix for it that will be shipping soon! Keep up the
good work.

By broadband I meant across the frequency range. The reason that I
ask that is because one of my mixdowns seemed to have ateenuated all
the frequencies down about 5-6 db but the low frequencies seemed
hotter (relatively speaking) than in the original mix. Probably what
happened is that the bass track wasn't affected as much as the other
tracks.



Peter Haller wrote:
>>Not sure I follow you on the broadband comment. The gain reduction
>>was across the main busses. So how much a particular track is
>>effected would depend on how it was assigned to the busses.
>>
>>The fix should be part of the international release that we will be
>>making shortly. I am checking on this.
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>Erich Grube wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Ive experienced this same problem and thought that maybe I just
>>>>wasn't doing something right. I had four busses active so I must
>>have
>>>>lost 6 db. Also, it appeared as if the gain loss
>>wasn't 'broadband',
>>>>or distributed evenly across all tracks. After normalization I
had
>>>>to do some fairly radical multiband compression in Sound Forge to
>>>>return the intended low freqeuncy content.
>>>>
>>>>This is a nasty bug. I know one studio owner/producer who
deleted
>>>>his demo version because of this problem and will not consider
>>using
>>>>Vegas until this is fixed. I am luckily just doing demo and
>>>>songwriting right now but consider this a showstopper for
>>production
>>>>purposes. I don't want to 'normalize' a final mix that radically.
>>>>
>>>>Do we all just run our final mixes 3 or more db high for now? If
we
>>>>run a mix into the red will it fix itself when mixed down to two
>>>>tracks, or will the saturation still be there? I hope that the
fix
>>>>for this appears as a patch soon. This can't wait until a new
>>>>release in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>>Erich Gruber
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Peter Haller wrote:
>>>>>>The main bus meters are accurate during realtime playback.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We recently discovered the mix to new/save as file problem.
There
>>>>is
>>>>>>a 3dB gain reduction per bus pair when mixing down. (1 - 2
buses
>>>>>>cause a 3 dB reduction, 2-4 buses cause a 6 dB reduction, etc.)
>>We
>>>>>>have a fix. Not sure when it will be available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jaergo Wvtrysen wrote:
>>>>>>>>How do I actually see what my real output level of an event
>>>>>>>>is? I'm not recording to an external device, just the hard
>>>>>>>>drive, so is 'Bus A' an accurate representation of what my
>>>>>>>>levels really are? Sometimes I'll mix down two tracks to one
>>>>>>>>and after it's mixed, I find the levels arent what I'd
>>>>>>>>hoped. Too low, usually.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks in advance.

Peter Haller wrote:
>>The Vegas Pro update 1.0b is available in the downloads section.
This
>>has a fix for the rendering problem.
>>
>>How are you determining/defining the 'quaility' of the conversion
>>from 24 to 16 bit?
>>
>>Peter

Just by listening to the same file sampled down in both programs and
switching between them in the control room. Hey! The 1.0b has solved
the db level in mixdown! back to Vegas for me! Thanks guys!

James

Have you tried inserting the dithering plugin in on the main busses?
This should improve the dither significantly.

NOTE: Don't use this when you mixing unless you want to hear the
dither in real time. (It takes CPU cycles.)

Peter


James Johnson wrote:
>>
>>
>>Peter Haller wrote:
>>>>The Vegas Pro update 1.0b is available in the downloads section.
>>This
>>>>has a fix for the rendering problem.
>>>>
>>>>How are you determining/defining the 'quaility' of the conversion
>>>>from 24 to 16 bit?
>>>>
>>>>Peter
>>
>>Just by listening to the same file sampled down in both programs
and
>>switching between them in the control room. Hey! The 1.0b has
solved
>>the db level in mixdown! back to Vegas for me! Thanks guys!
>>
>>James

Erich Grube wrote:

>>To route the 2 track mix back through a console (I have one) to
make up for lost gain is NOT in my opinion acceptable
As far as I can determine you are the only who has mentioned "routing
the 2 track mix back through a console .... to make up for lost
gain". :)

>>Maybe you took exception to my choice of adjectives?
I was not taking "exception" to anything ... merely making note of
the way a commercial facility of long standing uses the product in a
way that is not effected by the "nasty bug".

In most cases, and with a substantial investment in outboard
equipment, we get much better sonic results mixing via the console
than with plugins and mixing to the harddrive - despite the DA
conversion to final mix format - which, in any event, would be
necessary if we were not using VP.

KAC ...

Peter Haller wrote:
>>Have you tried inserting the dithering plugin in on the main busses?
>>This should improve the dither significantly.
>>
>>NOTE: Don't use this when you mixing unless you want to hear the
>>dither in real time. (It takes CPU cycles.)
>>
>>Peter

Thanks for the tip..I'll try it out tonight

James

Karl


>>
>>As far as I can determine you are the only who has
mentioned "routing
>>the 2 track mix back through a console .... to make up for lost
>>gain". :)

Regarding the above:

I am/was confused because of this response of yours to my initial
posting.

"I can certainly see where this could be a problem for a project
facility with no console and limited I/O."

I inferred that you were using a console to make up lost gain during
a mixdown w/VP. Maybe I misinterpreted the context. It sounds like
you aren't doing your final mixes with VP? It also sounds like you
are using VP in a totally different way than I or my friend the
studio owner/producer (who by the way is worth at least double his
value in salt, maybe even three times.) :)

If you have the time could you explain how you use VP. I'm curious
why you would mix with VP and then route that output to a console, it
seems redundant and wrought with unecessary overhead, i.e extraneous
DA and AD conversions, and gain stages which no matter how good your
gear is still introduce noise. You don't seem to be using plugins so
maybe you use the console to access your outboard gear but why would
you bother using VP at all then?

Do you track w/VP? I'm considering purchasing one ADAT for tracking
live sources, then pipe the tracks to my hd and mix w/VP from that
point on, including the final mixdown, (assuming this attenuation
thing gets fixed.) I'm curious if you or anyone is doing that, and
if so how it's going.

Erich

Please note: I intended to say double his weight, not value in salt
thanks!


(who by the way is worth at least double his
>>value in salt, maybe even three times.) :)
>>

Hi Erich,

Yes, we often use Vegas Pro for the final mixes ... see more below.
AAMOF, since we purchased Vegas Pro, it has decreased our rental of
ProTools for final mixes on most projects.

... and yes, we probably do use VP differently than many. Keep in
mind that we have a substanial investment in outboard equipment and
prefer to use that over most plugins.

For starters, we use Vegas Pro heavily for flying tracks off of our
DA-88's (and sometimes analog multitracks)onto the hard drive of our
DAW for slicing and dicing with a wave editor.

We can also re-record these sliced, diced and edited hard drive
tracks back to the DA-88 for a normal mixdown ... using just the DA-
88's output into the console for the mixdown.

Neither of these actions involves "extra" D-A/A-D conversion with the
DA-88's since we use the MOTU's TDIF to do this.

In addition:

We can playback the hard drive tracks, via the MOTU system, through
the DA-88's (in digital input mode) directly into the console for
mixdown. Once again, no D-A conversion (other than the expected one
to the console) ... and, as an added bonus, no headwear on the DA-
88's!

OR

We play these hard drive tracks back through the MOTU system, into
the console, while the DA-88s are synched via MTC to Vegas Pro and
all MOTU analog and DA-88 analog outputs going to the console.

OR

We use a combinations of the above, with or without syncing to MTC,
to gain virtually unlimited additional tracks. (As an example, you
could sync the DA-88's to Vegas Pro, put one DA-88 in digital input
mode with two tracks in record and then play back everything off the
hard drive by assigning them though VP to those two busses ... still
no D-A converion, except to the console)

As you can see, there are a number of possibilities to use Vegas Pro
with a digital I/O system, outboard converters, or in combination
with the built in converters on an MMTR, to give you virtually
unlimited tracks, take advantage of outboard gear and still keep the
conversion process to a minnimum.

As a plus, we can basically "automate" our mixes with Vegas Pro by
setting the inputs on the console to the nominal level, using the
insert points for outboard effects, and with a combination of panning
on the console and buss assignments/panning/levels within Vegas Pro -
and using the various combinations outlined above - have what amounts
to automated mix down, particularly with regard to balancing levels
and panning of the individual tracks. This lets our clients work on a
mix without losing the settings between sessions.

I will grant you, as I stated in my original post, that we do have
the stage of D-A conversion going to the console for the final mix.
But, as I also stated, we would be doing that in either case.

KAC ...

Erich Grube wrote:

>>I inferred that you were using a console to make up lost gain
during a mixdown w/VP. Maybe I misinterpreted the context. It
sounds like you aren't doing your final mixes with VP?
>> It also sounds like you
>>are using VP in a totally different way than I or my friend the
>>studio owner/producer (who by the way is worth at least double his
>>value in salt, maybe even three times.) :)