Project Properties - Field Order

Ron Lucas wrote on 8/4/2002, 12:45 PM
In Project Properties, I make the Field Order set to "None (progressive scan)" so that my preview window looks nicer without the funky lines on my computer monitor and so that I can save images to JPG with the correct look.

Then, when I render to MPEG2 format and my destination is for TV, and the Field Order setting in the MPEG2 preset is "Interlace, bottom field first", I'm hoping this setting overrides my Project Properties settings so that the video is displayed correctly on the TV.

So summarize, I want to see the project in the preview window on my computer screen, thus the "Progressive Scan" setting. And I want to render for TV, thus the "Interlace, bottom field first" setting in the render preset.

Does this sound correct to you VV experts?

Thanks,
Ron

Comments

Cheesehole wrote on 8/4/2002, 2:35 PM
>>>I'm hoping this setting overrides my Project Properties settings so that the video is displayed correctly on the TV.

I would hope that just the opposite is true. I don't want my project properties over-ridden by render templates! otherwise how would you render a progressive project to an interlaced format?

render settings should NOT override project settings, but I think in some cases they do. I'll have to do some experimentation. SoFo, the less settings that are overridden the better! often I want to acheive something technical, or a special effect by setting project properties one way, and sending that to the encoder to be encoded a different way.

I feel the over-riding thing is very 'un-pro' and only limits the functionality of the product.
Ron Lucas wrote on 8/4/2002, 7:18 PM
Thanks for your reply cheesehole.

I just did some testing on a small clip.

Test#1:
In Project Properties, I set the Field Order = "Lower field first". Then I rendered the project to MPEG2 using two different presets; one has the Field Order = "Progressive only" and the other preset has the Field Order = "Interlaced, lower field first".

In each MPEG2 render, the files seemed to have what Field Order was defined as in my MPEG2 preset.

Test#2:
In Project Properties, I set the Field Order = "None (progressive scan)". Then I rendered the project to MPEG2 in the same manner as in Test#1.

Again, in each MPEG2 render, the files seemed to have what Field Order was defined as in my MPEG2 preset.

My Conclusion:
When rendering to MPEG2 (and maybe other file types) the Field Order defined in the preset for the render is used instead of the Field Order defined in Project Properties. In my case, this is what I want. Maybe you could do a similar test when you have a moment and let me know what you find.

Thanks for your time.
Ron
Cheesehole wrote on 8/4/2002, 10:01 PM
>>> Maybe you could do a similar test when you have a moment and let me know what you find.

I tested the DV renderer and found that the render setting does override the project setting. that is the behavior you prefer and is the safest way they could have done it. it does make things easier sometimes to not have to change the setting in two places.

I created a solid rectangle and animated it so that interlace artifacts should have been evident. when I rendered to progressive DV, it magically had no interlace artifacts. there should have been combing in each frame as I had turned off the de-interlace methods.

the work-around if I wanted the interlaced version saved as progressive franes would be to render to interlaced, then take that footage into a new Vegas project and render it to progressive or just interpret the media as progressive.

it's no big deal but I wish it was more clear which settings override and which ones don't... I like to know exactly what is being fed to the encoder. it would be nice to have more control over that... and everything else in the program :D

Blackout wrote on 8/5/2002, 2:47 AM
i have been wandering all of this too, there is the third setting of "right click" on the actual video file in the project, where you can set "field order". Does this override the project settings? does this override the render settings? All important questions....

blackout.
Cheesehole wrote on 8/5/2002, 9:00 AM
clip properties have to resist any type of overriding option because they tell Vegas how to interpret the source and each clip could have a different field order. you could have 3 clips progressive 3 clips with lower field first, and 3 with upper first. Vegas will retain those individual event properties no matter what the output setting is.
SonyEPM wrote on 8/5/2002, 9:35 AM
Sounds like you guys have it figured out, but just so there's no confusion:

1) The field order in media properties tells Vegas whether the footage is upper/lower/progressive. This is not the place to "force" a different field order- Vegas needs to know what the source actually is, and then it does the right thing in subsequent processes. (Also, even though you may access media properties from an event, a change in media properties affects the media itself- you don't need to change the media props for all events that reference the same media)

2) Render settings override project settings of the same type. For true wysiwyg, you should set the project settings to match the render settings, and check out how it looks before the sometimes-lengthy render process.
Cheesehole wrote on 8/6/2002, 2:04 AM
Got it. Thanks :D
Erk wrote on 8/15/2002, 12:53 PM
SonicEPM-

So, if I'm working with footage that originates as Lower Field first, I should set Project Properties to Lower Field, and then if I render to some Progressive format, it will override those Project settings. But I should keep those Project Properties as Lower Field, so that Vegas knows what to do when I ask it to render Progressive. Unless, in testing, I find that setting both Project and render to Progressive looks better?

Do I have that right?

Thanks,
G
SonyEPM wrote on 8/15/2002, 1:44 PM
If you are going to render as progressive, you should set the project to progressive to give you the closest possible wysiwyg preview. As I said earlier, render settings override project settings of the same type, so even if your project is set to "not-progressive", if you choose to render as progressive, the file will wind up as progressive.
Cheesehole wrote on 8/16/2002, 10:08 PM
>>>So, if I'm working with footage that originates as Lower Field first,

you just have to make sure that VV is interpreting your footage as Lower Field first by right clicking your media on the timeline or in the media pool and hitting properties.

the media properties have nothing to do with the project properties. project properties are a separate step from your media properties. that is so you can use many different types of media with various field orders in the same project.

as SonicEPM said, always set your project properties to your destination format, so you can see what it will look like in the preview window. if you decide to render to a different field order or frame size or something, you need only modify the setting in the render settings dialog. that is to be convenient and not confusing to people.

unfortunately it is still confusing, because it isn't clear which settings override the project properties. I guess all of them do, but before I thought only the settings on the 'Project' page were overriding project settings.

adding to the confusion, is the fact that setting your audio sample rate to 48K, then rendering to .ASF at 32K, will result in awful buzzing audio because no real sample rate conversion is happening. the solution is to make sure the project properties match the output settings.

in other words, some render settings DO NOT override project settings, and can result in very bad quality if you aren't careful. this is the reason I really hope that this is being addressed for the next version.