Protune vs. Cineform in Vegas -- the Tests

musicvid10 wrote on 12/31/2014, 12:50 PM
Disclaimer:
This thread is for the 1 or 2% of users who understand grading on a production level, and 8-bit vs. 32-bit float editing environments. Most users (including me) should not be using Protune for any kind of production, as was stated previously. Hobbyists and the entitled are exempt.
;?)

The narrow question was, "Do I import native Protune or Cineform conversion into Vegas for grading?" All Protune is flat 1.0 gamma, and the universal viewing standard is 2.2 gamma. For an understanding of what "gamma" is, as opposed to "levels" or "contrast," search the internet.

First, as a starting point only, here is a shot from non-Protune mp4. It is inarguably 8-bit, with limited dynamic range (look at the window on the right and cabinet on the left, and the contrasty GoPro "look" is evident. Note that these videos were purposely shot dark to exclude approximately equal amounts of information from both ends of the luminance spectrum.

You must right click and view or save image to see these at full resolution.



Next, here is the native Protune mp4. It is flagged as 8-bit, but the GoPro folks say it can contain up to 12 bits of real information at 4:4:4, which seems remarkable. If we view it in Vegas in its native form, we can see it is only 8 bit, but the gamma has been flattened as expected. No extra information or dynamic range is revealed by viewing it in a 32-bit float project. All Vegas sees is flat 8-bit, perhaps a fun playground for practicing our color correction skills, but fairly uninteresting in a production workflow.



So where do we get a full 10 bits of information, and the corresponding increase of dynamic range -- several stops worth, according to the GoPro folks? The answer lies in GoPro Studio, and its proprietary Cineform codec. If we are to believe Cineform's head developer, David Newman, merely converting to Cineform in Studio will upack all that hidden information, and put it back in a 10-bit AVI or Cineform container.

Is this even true? See for yourself. As a retired commercial photog, I'm seeing a stop or so of detail in the dark areas, and maybe a stop in the window that wasn't there in either of the 8-bit versions. We would see even more detail, up to 12 stops total with the paid version of Studio. It's also been pointed out to me by another user that the free Studio version may produce 4:2:0 chroma, and would need the paid version for 4:2:2 and 4:4:4. I can't really confirm or deny that at this stage of testing.



So, if I asked an experienced color grader which Protune incarnation he/she would rather wok with, the answer would be instantaneous, knowing that neither is ready for delivery in a 2.2 gamma world.

Conclusion: native Protune mp4 is of little use in Vegas, except as a curiosity; GoPro never intended the stuff as anything but a storage wrapper, although everyone and their cousins think it's the bee's knees for editing. It's just not.

The Cineform conversion, however, gives us real 10-bit from a consumer camera, along with Blackmagic and a few others. The problem is, Vegas doesn't have a preset for G-log (again, I made that up), so even the most creative among us have no scientific starting point, like a rowboat adrift on the ocean.

The nagging question remains: Until our audience and clientele are able to ingest and view full uhdtv quality as the daily norm, why even bother?

Original GoPro footage courtesy of https://vimeo.com/user442745

To the inevitable question, "What if you were to . . .?" my answer is, "Run your own tests."
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=848611&Replies=24

More to come . . .



Comments

riredale wrote on 12/31/2014, 3:51 PM
I'm not sure what I should be looking for here.

To me, the second and third photos look similar in dynamic range, perhaps two stops wider than the first photo.

From a general philosophical perspective, isn't it better to shoot in a format that is generally broader (gamut, resolution, dynamic range, etc.) than the delivery format so that the inevitable degradations that come from editing don't impact the final product much, if any? In my case I shoot in HDV for delivery in DVD. But I think I'm missing the point you are trying to make.
wwjd wrote on 12/31/2014, 4:12 PM
for reasons I've stopped questioning, I see none of the examples above. Just "." instead. Been happening for ever, but I would love to see them! Any ideas? I'm using Google Chrome.
huh. works in IE when I am logged out, logging in I get the dots again. k
musicvid10 wrote on 12/31/2014, 4:47 PM
The first two photos have nearly the same dynamic range, but the first one has different gamma, which blocks up more pixels in the monitor display.
0-4 is a "dead zone" on even some good monitors.

Third has a wider dynamic range. Right click to view the full size images.

musicvid10 wrote on 12/31/2014, 4:50 PM
wwjd its your forum settings
wwjd wrote on 1/1/2015, 10:08 AM
[pics showing not fixable in my settings. weird] but I got to see them

musicvid10, I totally get and respect what you are saying, but there is no reason for me to avoid shooting with my gopro's fuller potential from protune. I can grade it to look better than what the standard setting can produce out of camera, I get bigger bitrate for more info. Without using protune, I get less bitrate, less settings to adjust like color temp, sharp, iso, and "visually less" dynamic range (burried blacks etc)

Yes, converting it to cineform is the PROPER way to setup the clip, but if 99 out of 100 viewers would never notice any difference, it is just an extra step.
musicvid10 wrote on 1/1/2015, 2:01 PM
Neither would 99 out of hundred editors.
I always get something new from your video work, Happy New Year!
Pete L wrote on 1/2/2015, 4:49 AM
Going on the paid version of Cineform, the premium, not the professional version.

Chroma Format:10-bit 4:2:2; 12-bit 4:4:4(:4); and 12-bit CineForm RAW

Interestingly it is the same as the professional version.
I might take some test shots & download the trial version for a play with it.

I like your test too MusicVid, good way to show the DR.
I am learning a lot from your input so thankyou.
Cheers Pete.
musicvid10 wrote on 1/2/2015, 9:19 AM
Would love to see those results, Pete!
Suggest you download the original clips used above from Vimeo.
They were carefully set up to clip about equally from both ends of the dynamic range.
Also glad you're one of those who gets it. It's a steep learning curve (was for me), and well worth it.
Only thing missing for me is a Hero4 Black!
Steve Mann wrote on 1/2/2015, 10:47 PM
I have a Hero4 Black on my drone. What would you like to see?
Jedman wrote on 1/3/2015, 4:44 AM
Very much so.
appreciate it Steve