i had the dsr 11 working fine the other week, we could see the tc reading ok and could enter in a specific tc for it to record to (however this bit didnt work!) we upgraded to the dsr45 thinking that it should still do it !

are any other users out there having problems with sony dsr decks ??

GLEN.

You will not be able to do a frame accurate insert edit on a DV device of any type with Vegas or any other DV app with OHCI deck control. So for ptt, you are limited to what historically is known as a "crash record".

Some apps (FCP, Premiere, DVX) have serial deck control capability, but while there are possibly some benefits, I have yet to hear any USER say that they can, for sure, do a glitchless timeline-originated insert edit on a DV deck of any sort. 422 device control itself does not solve this particular problem.

So: If you need to change one little section of a DV program, the best way to do it is capture the entire master, make the cahnges, and print a new, corrected master from start to finish. Guaranteed clean inserts, with zero chance of trashing the master!



Even though all DV devices are supposed to conform to the OHCI spec, they don't and that's why some deck (like the dsr-11 for instance) require you to push record manually after the ptt prep is done. We are looking at cleaning this up somewhat in the next version of Vegas...but it still won't allow frame accurate insert editing back to a deck, so don't count on that.

not bothered about insert editing with ptt, just want to be able to hit ptt and for the deck to record the video/audio plus selected bars/tone at front end.

we also want to record the TC through firewire into our dsr45 (it has the ability to record external 1394 tc )

does vv3 output tc signals in the 1394 ptt mode ???

GLEN.

I beg to differ as I do insert editing frame accurately to DV decks. I use the AJD650 and can do it on DVCAM decks. Use RS422 of course and the program allows it in my VM/DPR setup. But you must have timecode to read and match between the deck tape the the NLE timeline. Not sure how VV3 does it and I have not tried it for VV3 as I don't have RS422 for it to these decks. But frame accurate tape insert is most definitely a rule of thumb on insert editable decks.

Gary Ashorn, PE

from deck to deck I believe. From a DV app's timeline: have you done that?

I did not say I do insert editing with a DV application program like VV3 or Canopus etc. Read what I say, I use a VM/DPR 4:2:2 digital editing system that DOES do insert editing with RS422. DV systems using Firewire I do not "believe" are able to do that. The point was RS422 frame accurate decks do insert editing if the controllers are able to read and use the timecodes. A VM/DPR system Does and the decks I use can do that. AJD650 DVCPRO, UVW1800 Betacam SP, DS-850 S-VHS. That is what I was referring to and have been doing for 7 years. I have added VV3 to augment other editing sets I need to my system. Great program but per this thread, insert editing is considered a must for my work. Not everyone mind you, but some of us.

Gary Ashorn, PE

A friend recently sent me this . . .

Does Matrox RT.X100 support frame-accurate insert editing?

MATROX: Yes. The Matrox DV export-to-tape module lets you export a complete project,
or only a specific part of a project to a specific location on a DV tape. It
even lets you do frame-accurate insert edits if your camera or VTR supports
this function. You save time because you don't need to reprint your entire
project when you make small changes. You can cleanly overwrite the old
sections with the new ones.

. . . this is interesting, and if my need becomes so great I cannot wait, then I might consider it, i.e. if Premier 6.0 and the ProVTR RS-422 plug-in doesn't perform adequately as a stop-gap measure while I wait SoFO to implement RS-422 deck control.

Let's make sure we are all on the same page with respect to terminology. Professional editors will make a distinction between an "assemble edit" and an "insert edit". Here's how they differ.

Imagine a simple movie with three 10-second long video clips assembled back to back on the timeline (with a simple cut between the first, second, and third clips).

You lay the movie to tape and then later decide to make a change in the second clip (it doesn't affect how long the whole thing is, only that the second clip changed in some manner other than length).

With an edit-deck that is only capable of an "assemble edit", you have to record the second and third clips to the end of the first in order to update the master tape. You assemble the second to the first and the third to the end of the second.

With an "insert edit" capable edit-deck, both the start 'and' the end of the second clip are 'inserted' cleanly onto the master tape. You thus only lay the different second clip into the existing master as the first and third clip remain undisturbed on the tape.

This is important as unseen by viewers (i.e. information on a tape which you don't see with a television) there are such things as perhaps a timecode track, or a cue track, or especially important if anything's going to playback the master tape and it doesn't have a time code board, is a control track, then there's a front porch and a back porch, space for subtitles, etc., etc., etc.

The ability to perform a clean insert edit (i.e. without disturbing the prior or subsequent footage requires an edit-deck capable of insert-edits (naturally they're more expensive). Hence, all decks are not capable of insert-edits yet I see the term bandied about all the time. In the professional world of video, any edit controller (which is what an NLE like VV is) would control three decks (2 playback and 1 record) to create a master tape. An NLE simply does what the two playback decks would do in a traditional AB-Roll edit bay (i.e. more betta!).

Anyway, this is a very common request because when a client comes to you with a new commercial which needs be inserted into an exisiting program . . . I mean this is bread and butter work to anybody doing this for a living (i.e. a professional at any level of the food chain), I ain't gonna say take your money elsewhere, understand? Hence, VV's inability to deal with this seems incredible.

To recap, the ability to 'end' the edit hence differentiates edit decks. An assemble edit capable deck "can't" end cleanly, while a more expensive insert-capable edit-deck 'can'. Insert edits to tape (cleanly at both ends) calls for an expensive deck - the expense is in the deck as controllers are a fraction of the cost of decks!

FCP, AVID's XDV3.5, and supposedly Premier with the addition of the ProVTR plug-in are the only software-only NLEs I am aware uf which permit this - VV 3.0c doesn't. Maybe VV4, or VV4.0b will. I am so impressed with SOFo's VV3.0c that I am willing to wait and see as I otherwise see no more compelling an editor than VV3.0c - though I may eventually look at AVID more closely as the need for insert-edit capability is so great as to make this a more important function than the editor to my business.

Imagine a butcher with a cleaver but without electricity (hence, no meat saw). It means he has to turn away the 100-cow butchering job as he can't cut them up quick enough with his current tool, the cleaver. Yet every professional butcher has a saw so when somebody wants's to sell him a new butcher-shop and it only supports a cleaver . . . well, it's kind of how I sometimes feel with VV as it exists.

Meanwhile, earlier we have been informed Firewire doesn't permit "insert-edit" capabilities, yet the Matrox info above seemingly contradicts this. In any case, I thought Firewire did permit "assemble edit" capability . . . can anyone confirm? It's not as good as an insert-edit but it beats the heck out of push the button to record "jamb-edits" (yes, there's a name for everything amongst folks who do this for a living).

Folks, have we been speaking with the same terminology?

Hi All,

"Folks, have we been speaking with the same terminology?"

Yeah, I think we're all pretty much on the same page. There are NLEs (and hybrids, as GWA points out) that do the insert-edit with frame accuracy. (They do not list at $499.00 USD.) More the issue, as John points out, not all decks have insert-edit capability. (Those that do, cost a bit more than a handycam.)

VV may in the future have rs422 control, or a third-party such as promax or videomedia will provide an interface, but as those who have been editing in the linear world know; it can still take some time to get all the children (equipment) to play nicely together, even when the options are available.

Not having 422 does not seem (to me) to be an oversight by SoFo, this looks more like every other video manufacturing/development curve. Most companies don't kick-off with every bell and whistle... cover the basics and add some sizzle to get some attention and sales... put some sales $$$ into more R&D, etc., etc. Features specifically for professional use may be later offered as options to keep the base-price in the fat segment of the curve.

Remember how long it took to establish rs422 as a "standard" transport protocol? If I were SoFo I'd let the other guys suffer the growing pains of multiformat interfacing for a bit, and stick to core-competencies: cool software that does wonders.

So, I'm not holding my breath for a Vegas rs422 option. Besides, I'm not in that market right now... I've enjoyed the VM/DPR hybrid with great success, but I don't currently have the need for ninety-minute turanaround for a sixty-minute show. Moreover, I have items higher in my personal VV wish-list.

If insert-edits are paramount, you might look at Incite... or Pinnacle... or who knows. You haven't lost a dime in your investment in Vegas, because even if you *have* the meat-saw you still gotta have a good cleaver too.

My 1/4 pound, MPH

.... and back to the original question...
I also have a DSR-45 and yes indeed the Automatic Record to tape is greyed out.
Further, you can't count on how long it actually takes to get the VV timeline to get to actually recording... sometimes you'll get a pause of 15 to 45 seconds after the computer tells you to Manually Start the deck.

This is particularly weird since if you go to the Capture Tape mode (or program), you can Print to Tape using this function. But the Print to Tape function in the Capture Tape mode doesn't include Bars and Spacer inserts.

Help SF...