Questions about the included MPEG Ligos codec.

wvg wrote on 9/5/2001, 3:25 PM
The standard for VCD MPEG-1 supports bit rates as high as 2600 for NTSC compliance. The Ligos codec by default is set at a puny 1123 bit rate. Under the custom option you can push this to a preset value of 1856.

Q1 Since the drop down box under custom settings allows you to write over any value, will my typing in a higher bit rate of say 2400 actually get used or does it drop down to some preset rate and any change I make just gets trashed? What I'm really asking are you limited to a bitrate of just 1856 with the Ligos codec?

Currently if you selected advanced render, then the custom button it seems you need to go through several dialog boxes and remember all the values which seems clumsy and then that only changes the bitrate and frame size, not offer you a list of codecs on your system that you could render from.

I understand you can see a list of codecs on your system if you first select video for windows, but it seems even if some MPEG codecs on my system show in the list you can't use them directly from VF. Every time I try by starting out with a MPEG file type I get taken to the Ligos dialog box and seem forced to use it which is very frustrating!

Q2 Is the only choice for rendering MPEG from Video Factory with the including Ligos codec, and if so, why?

Q3 When you select mpeg as file type then select the Video CD NTSC template the following description shows:

Audio: 224 Kbps, 44,100 Hz, Stereo
Video: 29.97 fps, 352x240, 1123 Kbps, MPEG-1

Clicking on the custom button the video rendering quality is set by default to just "good". If I change to "best" then OK then click on the MPEG tab VF still shows the 1123 bit rate, so it appears my previous selection of "best" bit rate had no effect. Why doesn't the description show the actual bitrate? And how do I ensure that my render is at the higher "best" setting?

VF reports "Last used template that you didn't save..."
When in fact I DID save one with the "best" bit rate. The probelm is VF does not update the description box, nor does it allow you to write your own description so all you see if you select the custom template you just made is the messeage "last used..." which tells you nothing.

Comments

Jdodge wrote on 9/5/2001, 4:30 PM
Hello,

Q1-- The Ligos encoder supports a bitrate up to 1856 for mpeg1, no higher. If you change that to a value higher than 1856, then save your custom template and attempt to render the project you will error out. Ligos is the company Sonic Foundry created a partnership with for mpeg encoding, therefore that is the only encoder that can be used by Sonic Foundry's VF2.0.

Q2-- Answered above.

Q3-- You need to edit the text in the 'Description' dialog box under the custom settings window, then save your changes by clicking the save button and naming your custom template. All changes you made will be present, and they will be described in the initial 'Render As' description after you have selected your custom template.

As always, thanks for your interest in Sonic Foundry.
SonySDB wrote on 9/5/2001, 4:53 PM
These are good questions.

Q1 If you type in a custom bit rate, it will actually get used. There is a maximum bitrate of 1865 kbits/s for MPEG-1 and 15 Mbit/s for MPEG-2. If you type in a value larger than these maximums, the control will automatically update itself when focus is moved to another control (i.e. hit the tab key). 1151 kbits/s is the maximum video bit rate as stated in the VCD 2.0 specification. That's why 1123 kbits/s was choosen as the default for the VCD template.

Q2 The only choice for rendering MPEG from VideoFactory is the Ligos codec. Sonic Foundry has a proprietary file input/output architecture. The Ligos MPEG plugin is the only one that has been written for this architecture.

Q3 'Best' refers to how the project is rendered internally by VideoFactory. Setting this value higher requires more system resources when rendering. This does not change the bitrate or any other encoding settings.

You can't edit the description it the Render As dialog. However, you can edit the description and save the template in the custom settings dialog (i.e. the one that pops up when you press the "Custom..." button).
jimcho wrote on 9/5/2001, 4:56 PM
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wvg wrote:
Clicking on the custom button the video rendering quality is set by default to just "good". If I change to "best" then OK then click on the MPEG tab VF still shows the 1123 bit rate, so it appears my previous selection of "best" bit rate had no effect. Why doesn't the description show the actual bitrate? And how do I ensure that my render is at the higher "best" setting?
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I tried rendering a clip several times with just this setting changed. A checksum of the resultant files showed them to be exactly the same. It appears that "Draft, Good, and Best" only refers to the preview window while rendering. The label is a little misleading in this regard.

I did this in VF1 but I'm sure VF2 is the same.
Jdodge wrote on 9/5/2001, 5:00 PM
The post found at this link will go into more detail on this issue as well:

http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=75971&Replies=2
wvg wrote on 9/5/2001, 6:23 PM
Sonic Foundry said: The Ligos encoder supports a bitrate up to 1856 for mpeg1, no higher. If you change that to a value higher than 1856, then save your custom template and attempt to render the project you will error out. Ligos is the company Sonic Foundry created a partnership with for mpeg encoding, therefore that is the only encoder that can be used by Sonic Foundry's VF2.0.

Not surprised by your answer, but disappointed. Here's why:

a. the standard allows MPEG-1 to have a bit rate of 2600 which in itself is comparatively low compared to MPEG-2. Many, including me wish to play VCD's on set top DVD players. The quality different between bit rates of 1856 and 2600 IS VERY NOTICEABLE. While you can edit a video in Video Factory for such purpose, with the limitation imposed by the restrictions on the Ligos codec you are forced to use additional software to complete the job if you wish the highest quality. See seperate thread I'll write soon on trancode errors caused by the Ligos MPEG codec.

b. as a general principle I detest properity agreements in part for exactly the reasons you mentioned. It is one thing to force the use of one codec and one that is POORLY implemented in my opinion, however it is worse when the codec you are forced to use introduces transcode errors and won't even approach the higher range of the bit rate supported by the standard of the MPEG (Motion Pictures Expert Group)which is the official body that decides such things.

Q1 I would be very interested to know WHY the bit rate was limited for MPEG rendering. I can think of no good reason to top out at only 1856 when almost all the other templates use far higher bit rates. I suspect again that Sonic Foundy does not yet appreciate the importance of people wanting to render higher quality MPEG-1 for VCD and MPEG-2 for SVCD. The support for doing VCD is weak or in the case of SVCD totally missing.

Q2 While were on the topic, why no support for SVCD?

I bet something else about that agreement with Ligos.
griffon250 wrote on 9/5/2001, 11:53 PM
So you can't really do MPEG2 with Video Factory
its nice to be able to look over the shoulder of other users as they ask questions.......Oh and "SonicEPM" you haven't answered any relevant questions on MPEG2
IMHO........you let us down dude


>>The standard for VCD MPEG-1 supports bit rates as >>high as 2600 for NTSC compliance. The Ligos codec by >>default is set at a puny 1123 bit rate. Under the >>custom option you can push this to a preset value of 1856.


>>Subject: RE: MPEG-2 Codec for ANY PC?
>>Posted by: SonicEPM
>>Date: 9/4/2001 9:39:41 AM

>>MPEG2.org and MPEG-LA (complicated issue) both own >>patents on MPEG2, hence the fee for both encoding >>and playing.
wvg wrote on 9/6/2001, 12:33 AM
You can do MPEG 2 with Video Factory, but you can't do SVCD which requires MPEG 2 output at a 480x480 frame size. I know, a little confusing. Most of my questions and comments concern these two formats since so far I mainly use VF for editing prior to burning to CD disks. As long as you don't want to burn a disk at SVCD and just want higher quality (higher bit rates) VF has several templates for that which are MPEG 2 which work nice.

I'm just a little annoyed because if I want higher quality VCD's and who wouldn't, I have to exit VF and use other software to get a higher bit rate. That's a royal pain, extra work and lots of time wasted on what should be an unnecessary step.

A bumber because using Windows 98 SE I got to watch I don't hit the 4 GB barrier and since most of my vids are long, I will. That leaves me with rendering as a MPEG and either being satisifed with the lower bit rate the Ligos MPEG offers and stop or using the highest bit rate VF has then re rendering in other software from the MPEG which defeats the purpose because if you render a MPEG from another MPEG you for sure will lose quality. A catch 22.

My other choice would be to upgrade to a different OS to get past the 4 GB barrier, then at least I could render to a single AVI file and then use other software for the final MPEG SVCD or VCD rendering to get the higher bit rate.

From my prospective it would be nice if VF had a option to allow you to pick whatever MPEG codec you wanted to render with or as an alternative at least supply a codec that has a high a bit rate as the standard supports and also a codec for doing SVCD. I think it is a BAD MARKETING MISTAKE to make customers suffer over these stupid licensing issues.

It if boils down to dollars I would gladly pay a little extra to have the option of getting a better quality MPEG or at least remove the damn restricion where you are forced to use the Ligos codec. It isn't that good a one to begin with.
SonyEPM wrote on 9/6/2001, 8:44 AM
"So you can't really do MPEG2 with Video Factory"

You can absolutely definitely create an MPEG2 in VF file that most DVD burning software (Spruce, MyDVD) will consider valid for burning to DVD. Yes, there are some limitations in our current MPEG implementation. We take note of all user comments and will be enhancing our MPEG capabilitiy in the future.
discdude wrote on 9/7/2001, 6:16 PM
SonicEPM said something like:

"We take note of all user comments and will be enhancing our MPEG capabilitiy in the future."

I noticed that VF keeps a rough feature parity with Ulead's Video Studio. Everything Ulead pointed out as missing in their feature comparison between VS5 and VF 1 ended up in VF 2 (Coincidence? Probably.) Ulead intro'd a "DVD Edition" of VS5 that includes a plug-in that allows for the burning a DVD. Makes you wonder what Sonic Foundry has up their sleeves - hmmm.

Personally, I would like to see an enhanced trimmer and chroma key effects in VF 3 tho'.
Veasna wrote on 9/11/2001, 5:10 PM
I would like to echo most poeople's concern on this thread about the VCD (mpeg-1) rendering output of the Ligos MPEG plugin. I generate VCD files of mostly digital still images and the resulting output looks terrible on my TV, especially people's faces. In your next VV upgrade please provide us with better MPEG encoding engine that can produce decent VCD stream.

Thanks.
pacho wrote on 9/12/2001, 9:20 AM
To defend Sonic Foundry.
but good MPEG2 codec is running from $400-$4000. I bet you did not pay that much for your VF.

You get what you pay for.

Simply forget about codecs included with any NLE editor and get external encoder.

www.vdchelp.com can help you there.