Satish's Frameserver might do what you need. It is AVI-based.

-Edward: Suppose your whole project is straight-cuts DV.
If you render out a reference file, that file will point to the original clips on your hard drive. It will render out almost instantly.
As opposed to having to copy all your media into a rendered file. The QT reference can avoid copying the media... it just points to the original media (and rendered media too).

Reference files can save lots of time when Rendering. As GlennChan pointed out:
"If you render out a reference file, that file will point to the original clips on your hard drive. It will render out almost instantly."

This would especially be useful for me in Vegas because sometimes I can't get a Full Frame Rate/Resolution preview. So for me to wait for each render w/FX and changes to complete... a 30sec spot or 5 - 10 second intro w/ multiple layers composites, oppacity, + changes, etc.... could take days.

w/Reference Files the Render is almost instantaneous so you can make changes and view the results in a matter of minutes instead of hours.

I haven't seen/heard much about Satish's plug-ins lately. I thought his plug-ins were no longer supported?

I tend to use a QT based workflow so I wonder if Satish's frameserver would still work for me?

The option of rendering to a QT Reference file would be a very welcome addition.

If your purpose is to get full frame rate previews when you have effects on your timeline that prevent Vegas from showing full frame rate, then a reference file as described will be of no use. Playing back the reference file with do one of two things:

1) play the original media without the applied effects

2) add the effects on the fly

In neither case will you achieve your goal. In case one, you won't see the effects so it's of no help. In case two, adding the effects will be time consuming and slow down the playback framerate so it's of no help either.

How would this differ from using something like Gearshift to make proxies?

Rob Mack

Reference files were originally created for media management when multiple people work on the same collection of clips.

Can save a lot of disk space.

Sample Workflow:
- Edit & Composite Greenscreen talent in Avid w/ Ultimatte.
- Render as QT Reference (Almost instant Render)
- Import QT Reference file into After Effects
- Setup/Build Multimedia project in AE
- Export FLV
- Import FLV into Flash
- Complete project adding Media controls exporting to SWF

Depending on how long the GreenScreen section is... rendering from an NLE can take hours or all night. Using a QT Ref file can knock hours off a project... which means making more money or having more free time.
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I tried using FrameServer but it did NOT work how I'd like. It only works w/ AVI and I had to keep Vegas open and 'Serving' the whole time. Sometimes it did NOT 'Serve' so I had to restart multiple times. (frustrating)
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I looked at Gearshift but did not see that it would do the same as a QT Ref file. I'm not really sure what a Proxie file is... maybe that's the same as a QT Ref?

Seams like Gearshift is for making Intermediate file types... kind of like 'down-converting'.

Okay, I think I'm getting a picture of it. Since the creation of a reference file is nearly instant, it sound like it has more in common with an EDL, AAF, or project file like a VEG. It's not the same as these, but it sounds similar. And if I'm guessing right, I'd say that the idea is largely incompatible with Vegas as it's currently designed.

I'll try to define what it isn't. A reference file isn't a proxy, intermediate, or frameserver signpost.

A proxy is a low resolution file that is used in place of a high rez file. This was a very common strategy with older systems using MJPEG media. You'd do your original captures at a low data rate, which didn't look great but played easily. You'd then edit, recapture all the media you needed at hi rez, and render. Avid and Media100 worked this way at one time. You can still use this strategy by capturing all your media at high rez and then making low rez copies to edit with. Gearshift does this and takes care of the swap from the low to the high rez files. Proxies address disk thoughput issues.

An intermediate is a file to use on the way to a render. Typically it's a higher rez file than the original and might be used to address processor throughput issues. For instance, a Cineform intermediate is much less demanding of the CPU than native HDV would be, but it's a lot bigger. You can use the intermediate as a source for final renders, you don't need to go back to the HDV source.

A frameserver signpost file refers back to the NLE that's feeding it frames. If you want to view a frame in the signpost file, the file asks the NLE to render that frame. It's a great way to get uncompressed output out of Vegas without having to render a big uncompressed file, and it saves the steps of rendering the whole project and then going to the other application and setting it up to use the big rendered file. With the frameserver you can (in the best of all possible worlds) set up an entire job and walk away, knowing that the NLE and the post-NLE application are both doing their jobs at the same time.

I can only guess what a reference file does based on some of your statements (I suppose I could go look it up but I'm enjoying the exercise here). You say:
--it takes seconds to make (nothing is rendered, nothing is copied)
--you don't need to leave the NLE open to support the file (it's not frameserving)

So I'm assuming that the reference file refers back to other media (like a veg file would do). The difference here, I'm assuming, is that it also refers back to your rendered transitions and effects, which Vegas doesn't normally create, and doesn't insist on like other NLEs might do.

I'm guessing that the quicktime reference file is tiny, and that if you put it onto a USB hard drive and move it to another computer (off network) that you'd break all the references.

Vegas doesn't lend itself to this sort of thing very well because it doesn't create renders to disk as you go. There are no rendered crossfades, for instance, for a reference file to refer to. This actually highlights the fundamental difference between Vegas and, say, PPro. Vegas works much more like a frameserver in that the preview window just shows a render of the current frame (this is why you can fiddle with filter settings live while Vegas loops). A program like PPro, and probably Avid and FCP renders things to disk, ensuring full framerate playback at the expense of disk space and flexibility. In this sense these programs have much more in common with your QT reference file, since they too refer to things that were rendered to disk.

Of course, Vegas can do prerenders to disk that a reference file could then refer to, but since Vegas doesn't do this in the background and doesn't insist that you do it manually, creating a reference file would be about as time consuming as rendering the project to DV-AVI, Sony YUV-AVI, or Uncompressed.

Vegas could do it, I think, but it'd require a bit of redesign to include background prerenders and a bit more sophistication about how it manages prerenders.

You'd want those reference files to be able to access media on a network to make things really useful.

Rob Mack

I'm just getting Automatic Duck Pro Import AE to do what's asked here, only doing it in an even better way.

This, alas, is for Avid or FCP or Motion to After Effects.

I think it could make sense for SCS or somebody else to create an extra cost add-on for Vegas to do this kind of reference export to After Effects.

If SCS is going to play in the pro space up from event videography, tools like this are needed.

Here's the point I was getting up to in a long and roundabout way. What is a reference file from Vegas going to refer to? Prerenders? Ya got any? If you don't have any then they'd have to be made.

If what we're really talking about is an AAF-like file in a quicktime wrapper...hmmm. Dunno why you'd want that over the AAF. I guess it depends on whether this reference file is supposed to have instructions about how to put the media together (like a veg file) or if it's just supposed to string media and prerenders together in a line from beginning to end.

If the reference file relies on having prerenders to refer to (something the other programs force you to do) then the change to Vegas has to come from within to make it more like those other programs.

Rob

Here's the best explanation and exact workflow that I have used QT Reference files.
http://books.google.com/books?id=rL9bIH0r6hoC&pg=PA400&lpg=PA400&dq=quicktime+reference+file&source=web&ots=m-9CgILnJo&sig=FU4iAdHoCC1XwMqPcPRTwd_HQFY

As you can see... this saves lots of time when working w/ Avid.
I haven't tried it on my FCP rig.

Something like this would be awesome for Vegas since a lot of what happens in an NLE still has to go to programs like After Effects. Yes, I know I can composite, etc. in Vegas... but some things still need to go to AE and the like.

I'll take the lack of knowledge & interest to mean that most Vegas users do not have a need nor see the benefits of using QT Reference files.

It's funny how these little things can add up to big money. Being able to save on Render time means I get to have more free time to either make more money, or hang out with the family, or just relax.

QT Refs are are a big time saver. Those of you that don't know about them should at least check 'em out to see If it seems like something that would enhance your workflow. Maybe it's another feature that will find its way into Vegas sometime in the near future.

When it's busy on the forum your thread just drops below the fold too quickly to be noticed. Don't take it to mean there's a lack of interest.

I'll have to go back and read carefully, but it sounds like this is a way for Avid to wrap OMF data in a quicktime wrapper. Quicktime can do a lot more than AVI so I'd think this is more possible in Quicktime.

Vegas doesn't support OMF, in fact I think only half a handful of applications support OMF directly and this was probably the motivation for putting a Quicktime wrapper around OMF -- so that other applications can use OMF.

Vegas exports AAF and I suppose an AAF file could also have a Quicktime wrapper, but I don't know if it's ever been done. I don't have a current version of AEFX to check here at home but I think it might support AAF files directly. Of course, AEFX probabably also can directly link to PPro projects so this would be Adobe's approach to the issue.

Vegas has no particular way of doing this but I'd think a quicktime reference file that reads AAF data would be the way to go. Otherwise there's Satish's frame server, which is a pretty good tool with lots of potential.

Rob Mack