did you ask your client what constitutes a professional nle in their opinion?

can they SEE the difference in output from various nle's?

fortunately i'm old and ugly enough to tell any client if they want me to work on their project then it's MY expertise they're employing, not the tools i use. (other than camera, which i'm happy to hire at their expense).

i have maybe lost a couple of clients in 20+ years by refusing to use 'their' preferred nle, but i gained considerably more from producing what the client wanted in a faster timeframe than many other producers could manage.

I usually phrase my reply to implicitly class Vegas above whatever-other-app they are fixated on. And that I am able to use whatever-app-or others, and choose to use what I consider best.

geoff

Sorry for the rant yesterday folks - it caught me off guard that a client would specifically request an NLE by brand. It occurred to me why didn't they request a UNIVERSAL project file like XML or AAF? I'm glad that Vegas Pro exports out a PPro project file albeit it's not perfect. I'm tempted to edit the project in Vegas Pro, deliver the edit, then when the client approves of the final revision, create a duplicate VEG file, remove all color corrections, transitions, etc, save it, then export that one out as a ppro project file and deliver that to them.

I get what others are saying about telling the client this or that, but this is a brand new client I haven't established a track record with and indicators point to when I deliver and they like the results, I'll be able to come back and say I didn't' edit in PPro, but instead in Vegas and delivered the ppro project file as a feature of Vegas allowing the export of PPro project files.

That's my hope anyways.

I can see two sides to this.

First, if this client has had a load of bad experiences with editors using NLE's other than PPro then they are just going with the odds that they'll get a better product from an unknown using PPro. This assumes of course you are unknown to them...

On the other hand if they selected you because of your previous work or work they've seen of yours then it shouldn't make a bit of difference if you are delivering a finished product.

@Hulk - I agree with your second item. The client wanted me because of my portfolio. We went through the typical negotiations and once we both found agreement, they brought me on board so it's not the work lacking. I can see how your first point makes sense and may very well be the lynch pin not only in this instance, but in future dealings with this & other clients.

The frustrating part in all this is two fold: Adobe has gotten to a place where they are wielding an enormous amount of influence on what we do for post work. They have FORCED users into a subscription based model that I from the very beginning have not agreed with. It's the basis of over consumption/endentured servitude to them for my business and I don't' like it one bit. Ever seen how much system resources are used when sending a 5 minute video to Adobe MEdia Encoder from PPro? I've seen as much as 20GB of RAM used yet the CPU utilization is less than 30% when rendering and takes along time given the simplicity of what I render out. Vegas Pro uses 1/4 the system resources while editing, but frame serve to Handbrake and my CPU utilization pegs at 100% everytime.

The number of cases I've read wher eusers of Adobe's subscription based products have literally been stopped mid project due to some issue with internet connectivity, slow month in paying gigs, etc has more or less stopped them dead in their tracks. It's the biggest reason I've stuck with CS6 for as long as I have. I shouldn't HAVE to buy into their hostageware to run my business. The problem is now, technology is advancing fast enough that CS6 is showing it's limitations - especially with OpenCL not being supported, lack of support for 4K outside of first gen Red, no CinemaDNG, and newer codecs. My plan to upgrade to SONY a7s bodies won't be supported within PPro CS6 (unless I transcode - but that's left for another thread)

As I see it, this boils down to one man shops like myself being forced to do business in a way that I don't like both professionally and from a personal values standpoint - and why I've been so active of late here on the Vegas Forums. I'm not some part time user - I do this for a living and doing it all in Vegas Pro pretty much gets me there more efficiently. I've edited recent projects that have taken me half the time to edit due to the speed and efficiency of managing audio, etc on the Vegas Timeline. With the option now to frameserve to Handbrake, that process is even faster now than ever compared to PPro/AME CS6.

Long winded response, but it does pose some questions around how we as content creators are going to do what we do in the future.

Of course it's a personal choice but I strongly doubt I'll ever go to a subscription based service for any software. The market will always find a way to provide apps for those who don't want to go that route. I ran Windows 95 until XP came out and I'm still on Windows 7. It's doubtful I'll even move to 10.

But back on topic... I have a feeling that many people group Vegas with the multitude of <$50 or nearly free junk "NLE's" that have flooded the market over the past few years.

Professional NLE?
Yes, my NLE is on version 13 and has been used by experienced, working editors for 16 years. It is a well vetted and feature laden application. It handles every media type, Ultra HD resolution, and just about any other feature you could ask of it. In addition, experienced editors can edit twice as fast as with any other NLE saving you money while delivering your project to you faster.

Well said @Hulk. Agreed on every point you've made regarding Professional NLE. I've used PPro since CS5 but have always found that I had to jump through a lot of hoops to get things done so editing has always seemed to take longer. When I edited some recent short projects in Vegas Pro, I was amazed at how quickly I could get things edited and delivered to the client. Time is money and the less time I spend in post, the more I'm making is how I see it. But if the client insists on a specific app for editing/delivering project files, I'm being asked to work less efficiently in PPro than in Vegas.

See my dilemma?

@Cliff,

Yes I get it. I was just trying to put something out there as to why so many people here really love Vegas. And I think for most of it that comes down to the really intuitive UE and workflow.

I was literally stunned when I moved to Vegas from another NLE. You mean I don't have to actually add a crossfade transition? I just overlap the clips? Whoa! I can drag and drop effects in real time right into the timeline and see the result immediately! I realize that much of the NLE world has caught up with Vegas on many points but back then it was really revolutionary to me.

My skills are pretty average at best in Vegas but I've seen guys (ahhem... DSE) edit in Vegas so fasst it literally made my head spin. And coming from an audio background I've always felt that editing (or mixing) is a creative endeavor. The easier and faster you can do it the more the creative juices flow. When things are really clicking there is nothing worse than breaking that groove to take 5 minutes to do a keyframe or find the right effect or whatever. And this is a big reason why stability is so important as well. A lock up or crash can totally break the vibe, make you lose your focus, and basically want to take a break right when you shouldn't.

Has the client asked for the project editing files? The one reason I can think of requesting a specific NLE would be if I wanted the project to be accessed by a different editor with PP in the future.

@Cliff,

Yes I get it. I was just trying to put something out there as to why so many people here really love Vegas. And I think for most of it that comes down to the really intuitive UE and workflow.

I was literally stunned when I moved to Vegas from another NLE. You mean I don't have to actually add a crossfade transition? I just overlap the clips? Whoa! I can drag and drop effects in real time right into the timeline and see the result immediately! I realize that much of the NLE world has caught up with Vegas on many points but back then it was really revolutionary to me.

My skills are pretty average at best in Vegas but I've seen guys (ahhem... DSE) edit in Vegas so fasst it literally made my head spin. And coming from an audio background I've always felt that editing (or mixing) is a creative endeavor. The easier and faster you can do it the more the creative juices flow. When things are really clicking there is nothing worse than breaking that groove to take 5 minutes to do a keyframe or find the right effect or whatever. And this is a big reason why stability is so important as well. A lock up or crash can totally break the vibe, make you lose your focus, and basically force you to take a break at the worst possible time.

I have never understood complaints like this from filmmakers. I have had similar comments about Vegas from people with regards to AVID or FCP. Others complain endlessly that Vegas is only 8-bit, which I find only speaks to the persons level of knowledge on the topic. Next time ask the client how an NLE that supports EXR, ACES, P2, HDCAM 444, XDCAM, DNxHD, and ProRes, is a not a professional NLE.

Another thought I had recently made me laugh at a guy that made the Vegas is only 8-bit comment. The guy was using an Apple which did not have a Quadro or FirePro chipset in it. Nor did he have any sort of external hardware that supported deep color, so what the hell was he talking about. Sure he can work material in 10-bit or better, but without the right hardware he is never going to see the results. Oh right, just like Vegas also does..

One thought on leaving that Nvidia card in your system. Often times cheap mother boards, and or roll your own systems do not have the PCI lanes available to support 2 GPUs at full bandwidth. Sometimes motherboards will say they have two x16 slots, but when populated the bandwidth is halved between the slots. Make sure that you are getting full GPU interface spec to each board if you leave them both in.