Here's one way of looking at it.

How much are they willing to spend?
How much do they want to spend? / How much do they thing video editing should cost them?

Depends on:
How much money they have.
How frugal/stingy they are with money / what their expectations are
How much they like (working with) you
How good they think you (and your equipment) are - some people may only want Avid, because it has a good name (which has nothing to do with how good it actually is).


From your point of view:
What are your business expenses. If you have an Avid with Avid hardware, you need to charge a high rate ($100/hr+ at least) because the Avid is expen$ive and depreciates quickly.

How much you want to make. You can take annual salary and divide by billable and unbillable hours, or by how many hours/wk you work.
OR
The minimum amount of money you want to make. Don't accept jobs below this or quote below this. You need to factor in business expenses as well as the fact you're working freelance (which is unsteady compared to income work).

Market pricing:
What editors go for in your market. If you can't figure it out, the people hiring you probably can't figure it out either.

Each market is different... some places are a lot better paying than others.

2- Many places quote corporate clients based on how much money the corporate client has (or what they think the client has). The client doesn't know how much video production costs. As well, the worth of a video differs from client to client (a 10minute video could be worth $10k for one client, and $100k for another).

That may not really work for you.

I agree with glennchan but wanted to add a few things,

You stated your area market allows for $3000 for a wedding so go off of that. How much of that is editing? how much overall and what is the final product(s) deliverd. Do a bit of math and figure out how much of that money is editing.

Also people tend to favor different things cost wise - one might love the idea of you saying "I will cut this for 1500.00" where as another client might go "That is way to high but I will pay you 20.00 per hour to edit" even if, in the end, it ends up costing the same amount. A lot of promo cutters have a set rate because it is what they do and they have certian "templets" they can go off of. In the old days people use have rates for "cuts only" and film wise the same thing - some people charged by the cut/splice. So a drama would be less to cut than, say, an action film. But so much has changed because now you have to factor in "everything" so to speak - you will have to transfer material onto your hard drive so how many hours is that going to take? Also hard drive space - will you need to get dedicated drives for this project? Than comes the editing - and after that what? Will you have to color correct? Add all the sound? Add all graphics? Create graphics? Output to tape? What format? These are things that were outsourced and an editor worried about editing and turning over an EDL or a workprint. Other people did the rest - so in a way we get less today for the work we do verses the amount we got years ago when all we did was edit. Some markets allow for pricing each item individually, some don't.

So we go back to the $3000 for a moment - what do they provide for that and, wedding adside, how much is the *same* as you will be providing?

Wow. Interesting thread. I don't do video editing for a living, but can probably draw some parallels to my (and many) areas of business.

Couple things to think about. Do you want to be "premium" or "commodity". If you pour your heart and soul into it and really try for masterpieces, that shows over guys who just run and gun. I generally believe it's always more fulfilling and lucrative to shoot for premium.

Here's a similar thought. Look at 2 bottles of soda on the super market shelf (different labels, exactly the same soda inside). One costs $1, the other costs $3. Even if they choose to buy the cheaper one, 90% of the public percieves more value in the more expensive one. A smaller number of people will buy the more expensive one, but it's quite possible to pull in MORE profit margin. And selling to the $3 class of people is often much easier.

Probably the best thing I read above is to think first "how much does it mean to the client". Yep, if the video will bring in $100k of biz for the client (vs $10k for a less premium client)... they don't care if you charge $1k or $10k. If fact, the person signing on the dotted line probably FEELS better spending for quality. "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".

Finally, I would add that the big fish / small pond maxim probably holds true here. Try to find a niche market to serve... like focus on corporate videos-- maybe even in JUST a particular industry. Then when you walk in to sell your services, they know you specialize. People feel comfortable with that. Also, it allows you to build a strong referral network.... which is how you'll really ensure continuous work.

-Jeff

Jeff: I'm curious as to what field you work in. Certainly I think some pricing strategies work across different fields.

2- Here's a pricing strategy that might work for video. You see it at large retail chains like Best Buy all the time. It's when they UPSELL the customer on something on top of what they bought. When I went to Radio Shack, the salesman tried to sell me an extended warranty on a cable that had a lifetime manufacturer's warranty.

If you buy from Dell, the computer is very close to "at cost" and they're good deals. Building your own computer is about a hundred dollars more expensive. Where Dell makes their money is on all the upgrades- some of the upgrades have 300% profit margins. And you know what? Upselling does work. Dell is a very profitable company.

The video equivalent of the upsell:
Whatever extra services you can think of. Maybe a montage. Or it could be color correction / Magic Bullet.
At a lot of post houses, they will add a markup to tape stock. This is kind of like upselling. (It does take advantage of the fact that people aren't good at figuring out the total cost of things. If people were good at this, they'd take into account the extended warranties and impulse purchasing they may fall prey to at Best Buy or similar retailers.)

Ok so I made the above out to be kind of evil (which it probably is). But if you think like that, then you notice that your actual rate is higher than your quoted/perceived rate.

If you want to sneak tape stock fees in there, you could always tell the client the tape stock is a freebie on the first project you deliver to them. And then on subsequent projects you can go ahead and charge em.

I'll bet they want to pay you about $300 per wedding. I know of a company here in New Jersey that pays $275. They want you to edit in about 7-8 hours. It's cookie cutter stuff. Once you're set up, you're basically plugging in new video to the same set of opening, ceremony, cocktail hour, reception, and recap.
This studio in NJ sends 4 -6 guys out each weekend, so they have a lot to edit. Which means they can offer someone potentially $1000 a week, working from your home.

Rich,
Rereading the original post, I think you're probably right. So a few of these projects would probably be good to hone skills, get some experience, and practice efficient workflows... but ultimately, might sap the fun out of it in time.

Glenn-- I sell high end Engineering software.
Jeff

Interesting thread, I just got pipped on a job by a production house who'll cut it on an Avid adrenaline for $145 per hour. Given they've got a rather flash facility complete with dolly birds to bring you coffee and the cost of an Adrenaline how do you compete, not just on final cost for the job but turnaround time.
Bob.

I'm also looking for capable video editors, right now, for 3+ projects I have from recent seminars (newest one will be www.CopywritingWealth.com) .. email me ken at daytradinguniversity dot com if you're a skilled vegas editor with multicam corporate seminar experience and demo reel to show..

Question:
I would much rather pay by finished hour of footage, rather than "how much per hour it takes" since that's so variable depending on editor skill..

how many of you have experience/thoughts on that?

eg "I'll give you my source avi on external hard drive footage", and show you a demo DVD of one I've edited myself, now you give me a quote on how much you'd charge to produce a 1-hour finished/authored DVD (+ source veg files) to edit it...


make sense?

I'd never pay an editor "by the hour" since there would be padding and uncertainty, I'd much rather, as a buyer, buy based on the output, eg "tell me how much upfront it would cost to produce a finished 1-hour DVD, based on this one (I give them) as a template, to see what it should look like" .. eg 30-second fades, PIP etc..


ken

$75-100/hour is about right.

Maybe the US market is quite different here. In Europe, it seems unlikely to me that you can earn such an hour rate for a wedding video.

Most of the post houses around here charge by the job, not the hour.
Every job is completely different and must be looked at to see what's involved. For example, a shoot of a 2 hr. training seminar that just has to be shot, dubbed and packaged will probably be considerably less than a 10 min. training video that may involve a week or more of shooting at various locations.
Even when I've quoted on the odd job, I always give a package price as well. The client is free to go elsewhere but I always warn them that "you get what you pay for".

Mike

"I'd never pay an editor "by the hour" since there would be padding and uncertainty, I'd much rather, as a buyer, buy based on the output..."

All you accomplish here is to get the padding and uncertainty rolled into the bid price. I once did an editing job where I quoted $95/hr and it would take 4 or 5 hours. The buyer wanted a single price, so I added some uncertainty factor and told him that I would do the project for $600. I got the job, finished in a little over three hours and collected $600.

Nice work if you can find it.

Steve

>>>I would much rather pay by finished hour of footage, rather than "how much per hour it takes" since that's so variable depending on editor skill<<<

I have never seen that type of pricing for an editor.

And see this is the huge issue - once you, as an editor, set a price based on run time you will, at some point, be shooting yourself in the foot. I gave the old example of "per cut" editing and the same explanation would work here. Say you have a set price for one hour of, as you said, *finished* footage and you get in about 80 hours of raw footage, in your scenerio it is already captured. So you now have to sit down and log the footage. Now you edit the footage, tweak the footage, do the DVD authoring and you output the footage. Ok - now in a perfect world that would be it...and say this is a dramatic piece. So you set your price based on that.

Ok so your next project comes in. Now you are told all the footage is captured and the project is already in rough cut form. So you give them your price and they say ok. Now you get the project and find out that it is a heavy action oriented project - lots of fast cuts and *lots* of footage. The rough cut is not usable so you have to start from scratch. Now, because you are doing it all - some of the footage has very poor audio so you have to fix that. Much of the footage will have to matched/color corrected. There are some effect shots that need to be done as well. You also find out there are huge sections not there and when you ask you find out that all the footage was *not* captured...so you have to capture 15 or more hours of raw footage.

Suddenly your idea has fallen short. And I know this leads to the question "Well I can have various prices, one for drama, one for action, one for music..." and so on. But the same "rules" would apply to each genre as well. Some projects are just very well shot from the get go, others are a mess and need massive amount of work. And the other thing is time - most all projects have a time factor involved so if you set a price and they come in and say they need it fully finished in 3 weeks it may not average out if you have a really bad production at the get go. On the other hand they may say you have 3 months or the may say you have 3 days.

Having more time is always better however the longer you work on a project the less per day/per hour you will get. I have done projects that are set on a price - actually that is the norm for things like feature films. They have a budget set aside and they come you you and say "I have 'x amount of money' for editing and/or post, can you do it?" In a sense it is up to whoever is doing various things on the post side to already have it in their head what their time is worth. If it works out better for you to have it in your head "I am paying for the finished project, not the time it takes to do it" than you should keep that to yourself because the flip side is going to be your editor, musician, effects house, colorist and so at some point asking for money because the project is not what they thought it would be and requires more work. If the reply is "I am paying you for the final product, not how long or how hard it is for you to do it" you may find yourself in a battle you don't want to have.

Having said all of that - some places/editors do only one thing. There are houses that cut only promos and, in a sense, you are paying for the outcome not how long it is to get there. If you look around most place's that allow public use have a set price for things like tape stock but most everything else is a per hour/per day rate. Dubbing fees are per hour/per minute. Stage rental is per hour/day/week/month. Editing suites are per hour/day/week/month plus extra if you need the actual editor. Color timing is per minute and it is extra if the clent wants to sit in the session...and so on. Many production houses have in-house people who get paid by the hour, even if you are not paying them by the hour..and that goes back to the budget part. If I have a budget that is what I present to you and ask if you can do it for that amount. It is up to you to do the internal breakdown of how it breaks down for you.

Now - important thing here that I have found myself saying over and over in these forums: Editing used to be just that - you edited. Low end average for that could be anywhere from $100 - $500 per day. However used to be you also had to rent an editing suite which varied based on the system you were using. So the trick was to find someone with their own gear so you would be paying, say, 600 per day as opposed to 1,500 per day. Now, however, most of use here have our own gear and it is all done on a computer so it is not the same. beyond that, as in your sceniro, you want to provide/get a *full fisnished* product - so suddenly what would have been costing you, say, 40,000 or more to do because of all the outsourcing will cost you 5,000 - 10,000 you hope. And suddenly the editor is now the asisstant editor, the foley walker, the adr supervisor, the music editor, the dialog editor, the colorist, DVD authoring firm, mastering house and so on. And the low end average for all of that now - for the DIY crowd anywhere form 100 - 500 per day. What?? What?? How could that be?? Because now it is somewhat expected because you have software like Vegas+DVD that allows you to do that all and people don't want to pay anymore if one person is doing it all than they did when one person only did one thing. (As in pay one person the same price if they do one job or 15)

But lets go back to your question and re-think/re-define it. The exception to what I have been saying is this - you want to pay for a "finished" project - if you go to a company that does all of this than, yes you can do that. Normally these places do not charge by the hour because they are full service companies that have more than one person working and they can provide "everything". I used to work for a company that offered hourly service however under a larger blanket service the price included all post production work including negative cutting and release print. I was working at a day rate and beside cutting the effects I was also the post supervisor - so I was going around checking on the foley guys, the dialog editor, the composer, be sitting in on the mix, go to the lab and check things like sync and color timing on what they were popping out first timed answer prints and so on. This consisted of not only a film lab but also a mixing studio, foley studio, dubbing faciltiy and, when needed, production services as well.

So to me the price for turning over a full finsihed product would be a *lot* higher than if I was only editing. To me it doesn't matter the type of project at that point. Some 3 minute music videos are far more complicated than 90 minute features are. So the direct answer, for me, is that it would be done on a project by project basis. You just can not set an overall price for doing it all.

Rich,

That place in NJ, was/is it called The Pros by any chance?

Anyway, I did some editing for a mid-high end wedding company in MD and managed to score around $250 - 350 per wedding. As said, it is cookie cutter but there are a few things to get clear upfront, if not, it will kill your relationship (as it did with me) with your client. Here are my questions for you to know in regards to editing weddings (or "Wediting" as I called it).

1. How many camera angles? (more cameras = more $$$)
2. Do they give you music for intro scenes?
3. How good are they at shooting (how much crap you'll need to cut)?
4. How picky are they in terms of being a perfectionist (that's a big one)?
5. Will you make VHS and DVD copies?
6. If so, will you have to create DVD menus or will they give you material?
7. If yes to 5, will you have to create, print, and apply VHS spine labels, VHS face labels, DVD disc labels, and DVD cases.

With my client I agreed to do the VHS and DVD dups. That took an easy job and turned it into a major pain in the ass and was a big mistake on my part.

Good luck wediting!

Jeff

(p.s. I installed a small bar in my edit suite (replacing a 2nd workstation) to help with watching endless wedding receptions. I recomend Makers Mark and Ginger Ale when editing weddings.)

If we dont shoot the footage editing is ALWAYS priced per hour . You get some yahoo that wants to BS all night and you quoted a fixed price you in big trouble, also if they are self producing the changes made are going to be real changes, not just wonder how that would look.

Actually, if you have a pre-made authored DVD that looks like the final one you want done, it would be easier and fairer for everyone to price by the project.

And a few sample clips of what the source video looks like, to begin with..

So you're basically giving the editor a finished copy of what you want the final product to look like, say "make it just like that", using "this" source footage, and then get a firm bid. And "here's my digital juice backs/sounds I want in the mix" etc... so the customers' supplying the audio/visuals, everything that's needed (except titles).

I'll never hire a video editor "by the hour", that's a license to steal.

Similarly, it's incumbent upon the customer to provide as much detail as the editor needs on the front end, so there's no surprises and rework (which is always common, especially w/rookie customers).

I like my model the best, eg "here's a finished DVD of exactly what I want, eg 30 second cuts/transitions, PIPs for overheads, using source footage like this (sample clips on DVD)", then put it out for a fair, firm bid.

I'd never say "guess how many hours it'll take and just bill me at the end". That's as bad as hiring a general contractor with a non-fixed bid and expecting not to get screwed both time/money.

Show a firm end product DVD authored model, and your source footage to the editor, then get a firm quote.

Ken

...........................I'll never hire a video editor "by the hour", that's a license to steal.

Good luck hiring a pro editor then.

Thanks ... though I'd think any professional video editor worth their salt would welcome work from a fellow video professional who wants an honest quote for a professional job.

Fixed price bids for well-defined video projects is fair. I only hire when I know exactly what I'm getting, and for exactly how much, and by what time, upfront and agreed to in a contract.

Ken

............so there's no surprises and rework (which is always common, especially w/rookie customers).
Ken I find reworks more common with experienced customers more than with rookies. They get the tape watch it a zillion times and find something that needs changed. I'm not saying your payment theory is wrong. I'm just saying after being in hundreds of edits I would never do it. Course thats just me.

The bottom line here is this: What do YOU think you're worth?

Ultimately, the only thing we have in life to sell is our time. How cheaply or dearly you're prepared to sell it for usually depends on how much you enjoy doing a job.

How many times have we heard friends say: "I wouldn't do that job for a million dollars"? What they are really saying is that it isn't a job that appeals to them, or that they can imagine themselves doing.

So, what do you think you're worth? People in this thread have told of 6-8 hour edits for $200. That's $25 to $33 an hour. At your level of skill and training, and with your overhead for equipment, insurance, utilities and profit, does that seem like a fair price for your time? If it does, then go for it! If not, negotiate.

If I were in your place, I'd ask the perspective employers what they had in mind as a ballpark figure for editing their weddings, then see how this matched up with my sense of self worth.

Again, speaking for myself, under no circumstances would I accept employment by the job. Having shot weddings at one time long ago, I know from experience that multi camera shoots (for example) can take a great deal of time to edit -- far more than 6-8 hours. And as several people have pointed out, poorly shot footage -- video and audio junk that has to be "rescued" -- can add a great many hours to the edit.

Get paid by the hour. If they don't trust you not to "pad" your time card they're probably not a company I'd want to work for.

Good luck,

Jack

I don't edit professionally, but I have a rate formula I use.

If the project intrigues me, I'll do it, and we'll work something out---a trade for services, a reduced rate, or something.

If the project would bore me senseless, I say: "$100 an hour with a 3 hour minimum. That includes loading the tape to the machine, etc." In other words if they have 10 hours of tape I have to load, that's $1000 right there, before I've turned a lick. "Why so expensive?!?!" I say, "My computer is tied up while I'm loading your footage. My computer charges me $100 an hour; I just pass it along to you. But with no markup!"

But that rate is only to discourage the non-serious or those whose project would be painful for me to deal with, for whatever reason. Needless to say, no one has ever taken me up on it. Thankfully.

I think I posted this elsewhere, but FWIW, I listened to a marketing course once. The guy published his own books. But what to sell them for? He let the market decide. He would send out postcards advertising a book for $20, another batch of cards advertising it for $30, and so on up to $100.

Whichever test mailing yielded the most orders, THAT'S where he priced the book. Surprisingly, the cheapest price wasn't the most popular, nor was the most expensive. Usually it came down a bit higher than the mid-test---say, $60 or $70.

Logic would suggest the cheapest price would yield the most orders, but no---people are funny about how they decide to buy, and value is based in part on what a product COSTS!

For what it's worth.

I find people to be cheap here in the midwest. So I am starting to offer unedited videography at half rate. So I will charge about $1,000.00 for a 2 camera complete wedding video and if the customer is too cheap then I will offer just a raw copy of the wedding straight from a single camera to DVD for about $500.00 if they can't afford that, then that's when I dig out my VHS camera and attach a Mr. Microphone and charge 20 bucks!!! :)