Well, to kind of answer my own question here, and possibly help other who were wondering about this I did a little test and here is what I came up with. I opened up a new project file and media bin. I captured 2 clips from the tape I called Tape 1, I then put in a diffrent tape that I named tape 2 and captured 2 more clips. I arranged them on the timeline and saved the .veg file. I then deleted the 4 clips I captured, unplugged my mini DV camera and restarted my computer. I opened up vegas, loaded the .veg file and as expected it asked me to find the missing files. I selected ignore all offline media and it then loaded up the project with all 4 files in the media bin and on the timeline and it said "Media Offline". I then seleced all the clips in the bin, right clicked and selected recapture all media. It then opened up the capture utility and asked me to put in tape 1. I did that and it procedded to capture the 2 clips from tape 1. It then said Please insert tape 2, so I put in tape 2 and it then proceeded to capture those 2 clips and then re-assemble everything just like it was on the timeline.
Tomorrow I will try and take the .veg file and source tapes and load them on a diffrent computer to see if that will work as well. Hopefully this will answer some questions, and help clear up my confusion and anyone elses confusion about this topic.

The VEG files by themselves won't do anything. They can't. They don't contain any video, only the specifcs of your editing that Vegas uses to understand what it is you did while editing. Of course Vegas can look for and fine the source files if you move them or rename. So if anyone was thinking by some magic Vegas has mini version of your video inside the VEG file, no. Just look at the file sizes of the VEG files.

>>>I then seleced all the clips in the bin, right clicked and selected recapture all media. It then opened up the capture utility and asked me to put in tape 1. I did that and it procedded to capture the 2 clips from tape 1. It then said Please insert tape 2, so I put in tape 2 and it then proceeded to capture those 2 clips and then re-assemble everything just like it was on the timeline.<<<

I wonder why SonicDennis said you could not do this...and I wonder why the tape info does not seem to transfer over to the EDL. This is excellent to hear however because it means that internally VV has the ability to keep information to recapture. If it can do it system to system this too would be excellant...I could hire Billy Boy to do Color Correction and just email him the *.veg file and provided he had all the source tapes, or a 1:1 copy of them, he could just color correct away. ;)

But this also answers another threads question that I had, and one that BB had also asked - the subject of EDL's and such...from what Jsnkc is saying 10 years from now I could just load up the saved *.veg project and be able to re-assemble the project and than go in and re-edit, or add new effects if needed, do new color correction, do a directors cut for "restored DVD" or any number of things. My comments on this topic were always based on comments made by the SoFo team about EDL support being limited and comments such as the one SonicDennis made about the non-ablity to recapture offline media at a later date. The only issues now I see are: with the current lack of EDL support if 10 years from now there is no VV what do you do? And if there is a VV at that time will it be backwards compatable with a VV 4 project? And currently there is no easy way to save custom settings so if you use any filters and use custom settings how would these cross over to a different system...and a different system with a different OS in 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? and so on. (Currently the only way to get a custom setting onto another system is to export the REG setting and import it to the other system so I guess along with the *.veg file you could export your Windows REG settings and save them in the same folder.)

Thanks Jsnkc,

Your test confirms the way I understood things - the veg doesn't of course contain any media (except vegas generated media), but does hold all the instructions necessary to rebuild from scratch, both for capturing and reassembling the timeline.

One caveat for those thinking about rebuilding a project - remember it's often not just video, so if it includes things like Voice Over, music, png or other stills etc, these need saving on a CD so that when Vegas 10 years on asks for them, you can provide.

One question - all this being so, what additional benefit do we get for also saving the Capture session?

peter

>>>remember it's often not just video, so if it includes things like Voice Over, music, png or other stills etc,...<<<

Excellent point and I feel stupid for not thinking of that...I mean I did think of it but my mind was really only thinking about the picture portion as it apllies to EDL's. Saving an audio mix is an entirely different bird. For me I used to just dump out each and every track to a DAT tape...one for the dialog, one for the music, one for the ambiance, one for the effects, one for the M&E, one for the full mix with dialog.

Now it is a bit easier with a DA-88 or the like. But to take this a step further - the important part is the image and production audio as far as picture edit/picture locked goes. Hopefully *both* of these can be easly recaptured, even if they are on seperate tapes (I.E - audio recorded on a DAT w/ TC) It would be perfect if VV would as easly lock up to external TC with a DA-88 to bring in the audio tracks as well...and again, now we are into a whole other discussion but I do beleive DSE has mentioned locking to ADAT's with Midi-TC and VV but I am not sure if it was in relationship to what we are talking about here - the recapture of a project.

To complicate things - follow me here - you have a project spread out over many drives, including network drives. You edit the project and lock picture. Now at a later date you want to go back and make some changes - now how well does the 'recapture all media' work? Will it work across multiple drives? Do you *need* to have the same drive set up in order to "recapture all media"? Ok..so now add in the audio..now for this lets make this scenerio: after you lock picture you dump it out to tape. Now send it over to your sound editor who re-digitaizes it from the *locked* picture. Now with that the sound editor/supervisor/sound designer cuts everything and locks that...for ease here lets say they also mix the film as well. All tracks are dumped out onto DA-88 (in multiple passes mind you - so VV would have to lock up to TC...VV would have to generate TC and/or lock up to the incoming DA-88 TC for the tracks to stay in sync) as well as a final mix dumped out to tape w/picture. Now...years later you want to work on the *audio* portion...so now what do you do? ahhhhh....not as easy. Now VV would have to look for, not so much "tape 1" but "track 1" on the DA-88. I would gather this is the same issue as having VV read 4 tracks of audio from a mini-dv tape - it can't, at least not all at one time. Sort of the ole Hi-Fi/linear VHS hack for certian VCR's that were made to be able to read both at once...maybe something like that would have to be done?

Anyhow - for the "capture session" my concept also included logging everything and saving the logs. On location the AC is hopfully logging each shot and if you are shooting video hopefully that log contains TC, or at least tape time, info. When you get to the editing phase hopefully the editor, or assistant or someone, is logging each shot with the ins and outs and including some description. So for me this "capture log" is as important because, in my scenerio of 10 years, once the original 'locked' picture in back on the time line you can look at the shots log/capture log and see what alternate takes there were or what other shots there were that were not used. Without those logs you would have to run through the tapes again and re-log everything.

Yes, Filmy, your scenario, particularly as it relates to film production, is a little different, and much more complex.

I was concerning myself with just the "standard" video project, where each audio track is made up from a number of .wav or mp3 files.

If these are kept on one or more data CDs, it should, at "10-year-on rebuilding time" simply be a matter of responding to Vegas prompts by pointing to the new location of each file, so that it can reassemble your original timeline.

Obviously, the better organised you are by having things in well labelled folders, the quicker this process would be.

Wondering how further testing went on this issue?

It did work when I brought the tapes and the veg file to a completely diffrent computer so I guess you can all make of it what you want to. All I has was a few clips from 2 diffrent tapes, I can't tell you if you would get the same results from hundreds of clips from many diffrent tapes, graphics, titles etc... But if anyone has a lot more time to waste on this feel free to do so, I'm sure everyone would like to know the real answer on if this is a reliable method for backing up and archiving project files.

We're really talking apples and oranges. Since I use removable drives extensively I sometimes due to space limitations on the drives move some or parts of projects to a less full drive. Since I'm talking about something in the neighborhood of about 600GB worth of material spread over multiple drives it can get confusing where you put what. That does not prevent Vegas from rebuilding the project.

Vegas can find "missing" files regardless what type, two ways. By letting it search for them anywhere on your system(s) or by telling Vegas WHERE you put them. If a project is missing some or all of files that make up a project it is smart enough to pop up a window and tell you. I'm of course talking about files on hard drives. How or if Vegas can repopulate bins from tapes I don't have a clue since I feel storing files that way is sort of a half ass method. If you the end user don't know where you put your files, expecting software to remember is somewhat wishful thinking. Kind of like your VCR remembering where you put your VHS tapes, in the basement, upstairs bedroom closet, whatever.

>>>How or if Vegas can repopulate bins from tapes I don't have a clue since I feel storing files that way is sort of a half ass method. If you the end user don't know where you put your files, expecting software to remember is somewhat wisful thinking. Kind of like your VCR remember where you put your VHS tapes.<<<

Ahh..well see BB that is the question here. We already know it will find material on the hard drive but the question is about original source material for the most part. I think when most people either transfer film over to video or shoot on video, that is how it is - in your term that is a half assed way of doing it but thus far not to many people shoot direct to DVD/Laser Disk/Hard Drive and not that many people telecine direct to DVD/Laser Disk/Hard Drive either. So for all of those people who still use half assed tape based solutions that is sort of how and why things like EDL's and SMPTE TC come into play. :)

I myself have been pursuing fully assed methods for some time now.

However--Can Jsnkc or others say whether this interesting function of a .veg file telling V4 to open the capture utility and prompt you on what tape number to insert, will ultimately recreate a timeline event which still contains a plug-in setting, e.g. color correction? If not, then all you get is recaptured DV footage cut to the in & out points, and--you're saving disk space but at the expense of more editing time.

I HAVE successfully recaptured a project (deleted media files) from the original source tapes, using only the .VEG file and the .SFVIDCAP (Video Capture batch log file) files. Some caveats:

1. I have only done this with DV files captured over firewire. Can't say if this works for other capture methods or not.

2. The .VEG file and the .SFVIDCAP file must be in the same directory.

3. I've had some problems recapturing trimmed projects "saved with trimmed media." Not sure if this feature works with trimmed projects or not.

4. Any video clips NOT captured with SFVIDCAP (including media generated in another program, like After Effects), stills, audio files recorded after capture, etc. ARE NOT recapture-able. If you have these saved on CD or similar, Vegas will go and find them, but obviously it can't go and get from DV tape something that was never on the tape to begin with. Ditto for .wav files rendered as takes for non-RT audio effects.


With these caveats in mind, when you open the .VEG file, Vegas prompts you to recapture all media. Hit "yes." and it launches the Video Capture program, prompts you to insert the appropriate tape and starts a batch capture operation. If you have any media that falls into Category 4 above, Vegas asks you to either try and find the file, look in a specified location for the file, or to use offline placeholders.

As far as I can tell, the resulting project accurately reproduces all effects, Vegas-generated media, keyframes, etc.


When I complete a project, my archive strategy, then is:
1. Make a DV tape master of the entire project. (That way, if recapture fails, I can at least recapture a single AVI of the final project)

2. Put all video and audio media generated in other programs (i.e., After Effects title sequence) onto a new timeline in Vegas, with identifying titles between each clip. Print to DV tape. (This avoids having to recreate complex FX files)

3. Move all captured media files into a temporary directory. Open the .VEG file and see if I get the "recapture offline media" prompt. If yes, I know it's safe to delete the captured media.

4. Make a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM of the following:
- all .VEG and backup files related to the project
- all .SFVIDCAP files related to the project
- all media files created in another program
- all still image files
- all audio files recorded after DV capture, including "takes"
- a screenshot of the media pool and explorer windows

5. Make a second copy of .VEG and .SFVIDCAP files on my boot drive to protect against file corruption.

6. Format the A/V drive. (assuming I don't have any other projects online at the moment).

So far (knock on wood!), I haven't lost anything critical with this system.

Filmy, you forgot in your bluster to mention that Vegas doesn't support any real EDL (editable Decision list) or that that few use on need SMPTE TC. As far as a 'question' this thread has been all over the map. The humor I see is a few expecting Vegas to go far beyond what it was designed to do which isn't keep track of where some absent minded editor put take 26 on tape A40340-BC and then reconstruct a timeline by simply pushing a button and having the software keep your butt out of a sling.

I get this picture of someone fumbling around sticking an endless number of tapes into their deck or camera and taking hours to get everything back to where it was. I on the other hand like I suspect most people at the start of a project create ONE new folder in Windows, name it the project and EVERYTHING goes there and stays there until the project is finished. Anything else, in my opinion is indeed halfass.

I think it's not a feature for absent minded editors, it's a standard feature that is in a lot of other NLE's and should be in Vegas. It is so people don't have to store hard drives, or many DVD's of footage just so when the client comes back and says, hey I had you edit this pice together 3 years ago and now I need to add something, you can say sure I still have the .veg file. You can then recapture everything and have it back the way it originally was so you can edit in the new clip. We used to have to do this all the time when we were editing on the old Media 100 systems and it saved our butt many times.

Just because other more expensive NLE's do X, doesn't always mean Vegas should follow and I'm glad Vegas don't. Adding seldom requested features could push Vegas out of the price range of many and you'll end up pissing off a good portion of the established customer base that WON'T buy Vegas 5 or 6 if the price tag mushrooms to four figures because its adds more and more yet little used special features most have little or no use for.

My view, if a client comes back in three years and asks you to redo, I think you owe the client a fresh start and not a rehash of what you did probably with weaker tools. Saving original source files is DIFFERENT than saving old project files.

Most of what I say in the forum relates to what I do PERSONALLY with personal video in part because I know a lot of people use Vegas for personal use. I'm well aware some 'professionals' have special needs and may like or need special features that may not be included in Vegas and thus become part of their wish list. Also I think its easy for the casual reader of this forum to get the wrong idea and wrongly think oh my God, I got to do, A,B,C,D, E, F and G and for most only steps A and B are necessary. So when somebody throws out terms like EDL and other things they first should define what they are and how they're used.

BillyBoy you know I like to rib you here and there, it is all in good fun really on my part. :) I think the thing is that many many times people pose the question about online/offline in various forms. Aside from hardware support that would include deck control for higher end gear (HD, Digi Beta, etc, etc) the obvious answer is EDL support because at least with that option you could export an EDL that would be compatable with other systems if you wanted to, say, do an offline edit with mini-dv and than go back to your master tapes for a higher res online edit. But again, I am only talking about the actual edit here - not effects, color correction and audio editing.

As for the original question - it was if a project file can be opened at a later date to recapture/rebuild a timeline. On the one hand it seems that it can and, in all honesty, it was something that I had not thought of because of the entire EDL thing and what has been said by SoFo staff and my own experience. The fact that it could be done, at least in the context of a cuts only type edit, is a very good thing. It also means that all the needed info for a cross platform/cross system EDL is in there waiting to leap out - it just doesn't seem to be fully implimented yet. (interesting side note - DSE had questioned me about the need for EDL's anymore yet he also has said the lack of EDL support in VV is something that he thinks should be fixed...er, added.) I mentioned this in another thread - but Cineworks was a lower end version of D/Vision - the software was *exactly* the same however. If you had the Dongle you got D/Vision and if you didn't you got Cineworks. Cineworks allowed for SMPTE TC capture and even deck control. However without that dongle all that TC info was hidden, you could not export any type of EDL. You could, however, do a low res edit and than recapture at the highest res (At the time that was 'S-VHS' quality) for the final version/print to tape. Now if you had the Dongle, you had D/Vision and thusly you could export an EDL to a properly formated floppy and take that over to an online house to do your mastering. My point in telling this is that perhaps Sony might take this route with VV - obviously that EDL information is being captured and saved in VV so maybe some sort of dongle for the "higher end, more costly, 'pro' version" will come into play. That way only those with a need for things like that would purchase it - yet everything you get now would remain the same no matter what version you get.

As for project structure - that is really up to the editor. I am editing a project right now that is scattered all over the place. It is not very orginized and it is not all on one hard drive - Matter of fact I just had all the master tapes sent out to me because it seems the director did not even get all the circled takes digitized, so I am (was) missing many scenes. Each scene is currently in it's own folder, and some folders are empty and some scenes are scattered in multiple folders. A promo was cut for AFM so there is a folder called "AFM" that has some efx shots in it as well as selects pulled just for the promo, but that may not be in other folders. Another folder contains footage telecined from footage shot on 16mm that really has nothing to do with this project but the producer wants it used in a "nightmare/flashback" scene. And yet another folder contains stock footage that was shot in Mexico and/or China that I am supposed to find a home for. Welcome to the fun world of editing. My job is not to re-orginize the hard drive - it is to edit a film - but if all of this material was in one folder it would be even more of a nightmare. If I had to provide some sort of EDL at the end of this I would have just not done it - I would have said "Look, either I need to do this from the start and I need more money or I just have to pass." But having said that - if I *had* done it from day 1 - I would have done a shot log/tape log (The DP just emailed me one yesterday - and that was because he sat and went through each of the 24 tapes and did it just for me. His AC apparently did not keep any shot log on set) as I captured. I also would have created folders, or sub folders, for the scenes as I captured. There is just no way I would toss everything into the same folder. But that is me. If I did anything like that it might be tape to tape - all of tape 1 in a folder, all of tape 2 and so on - but even then I would try to label everything and put it into a folder that related to what it was - back to a folder called "scene 1" and "scene 2" and so on. But anyone who has ever shot and / or edited anything knows that things are never truly shot in sequence so all of the material would not normally be on "Tape 1" anymore than it would be all "Roll 1".

But you know..I do come from a film background so I have a lot of film in my blood. I still am getting used to the fact that "it's only tape" so producers and directors want to just shoot 'everything'. And also "hard drives are cheap" so go ahead and just digitize 'everything'. I sort of still have this concept of "know what you want ahead of time" and and "don't waste film" and "keep shot logs" and , most important, try to actually shoot something that can be edited together. :)

And on BB's comment of: "I get this picture of someone fumbling around sticking an endless number of tapes into their deck or camera and taking hours to get everything back to where it was." That goes along with what I have said about VV wanting to be sort of a swiss army knife of the NLE world. VV is an awesome tool for DIY people. You sort of, kind of, can do it 'all' with this piece of software. yeah - just hit capture and put in tape one and walk away. Come back in an hour and put in tape 2 and walk away. And on and on. When it is all done just start editing. All in the same folder on one hard drive and if that is someones workflow great. To me that is almost as big of a CF as the project I am cutting now. If wanted that kind of frustration on a daily basis I would only edit TV Commericals with kids in them.

I have fun too. I never take anything too seriously. Life is too short:-)

As far as a pro version of Vegas... I thought Vegas was already a professional authoring software package?

My fear especially that Sony is the player since they are for sure profit driven is Vegas could become over time just another high end editor with a price tag to match. That in my opinoin would be a serious mistake. I think as is its positioned about where it should be. Those that need special features and I think we're talking a small percentage of Vegas users, should maybe look elsewhere for their special needs.

That isn't to say I'm against features some would like, but if those features result in a much higher price for Vegas, that's a mistake and I doubt there will be a lessor and pro version anytime soon if ever. And I wish features many more could use would be higher up on the wish list. Example would be a graph build into some of the filters like color curves so you can more precisely set them. Also a eyedropper tool EVERYWHERE its needed. Curiously that its absent where it is something needed requiring resorting to tricks.

"The fact that it could be done, at least in the context of a cuts only type edit, is a very good thing."

filmy - just to clarify - rebuilding from a veg file does much more than cuts only - it reconstructs every fade, every envelope, every item of generated media, every video or audio effect etc.

Provided you still have the original camera tapes (DV) plus any "external" files like audio & stills, the timeline will look exactly as it did the last time you worked on it.

And Billy Boy, I had a project which needed two things changing - one section replaced by new material, and a revised voice over. By restoring the project, adding the new section and replacing an audio track, it took a day - starting from scratch could have run into weeks - I don't think I owed the client a fresh start there!

Yup. I can confirm: transitions and everything included in the recaptured project, IF you have everything properly archived.

BillyBoy, I agree not everyone will need to be as paranoid about losing data as I am. Actually, it sounds worse than it is. My whole archiving procedure described above can be completed in 20-30 minutes.

It just seems to me that if a project was worth spending tens or hundreds of hours to get just right, it's worth spending a half-hour to save.

Sure... which is why I save everything in a project in a ONE folder (directory) created in Windows, sub divided as necessary. If the project contains "stock" footage or frequently used overlays or background music, whatever, used in other projects or something I just created but think I'll use again elsewhere those files stay/go to their respective home directoy. Example I have one folder where I have hundreds of background loops.

There's really no need for bins which I view as added clutter. Others may have different views.

In my view archiving files is more a function of the operating system not a task to be undertaken by some application. Windows offers all you really need in file management. The advantage is whatever you put in a project is instantly available to ALL the software you have and is much easier to find and work with. To me, taking the time to sub divide material in bins at the start of a project is just duplication of efford.

As I mentioned in another thread I keep very detailed records about the project in a highly customized database. Old habits die hard. In a past life I was an supervising field auditor for a major union Welfare and Pension fund with billions in assets. You know how nitpicky number crunchers can be. <wink>

Interesting thread.

What is the difference between the info contained in a veg file with its media bins vs. the vidcap file with its batch capture info? Ie, if the veg knows what clips are from what tape, how does the batch capture info help? Perhaps I'm missing something.

The reason I ask is because I recently suffered a hard drive crash. I am able to recover almost everything through DOS tricks, copying to a good drive, but all the long file names are truncated, so Vegas gets confused. I'm just starting to re-create some projects. At this point, I could tell Vegas to replace "fishing clip 001.avi" with "fishcl~1.avi" and so on, individually, or just choose recapture. The first choice I made was for recapture, and even though I didn't have the vidcap file, Vegas seemed to recapture all the clips I needed.

Thanks for any enlightenment.

G

Interesting. I'm not sure about the relationship between the SFVIDCAP file and the VEG file, I just know that for projects where I forgot to preserve the SFVIDCAP file, the "recapture media" option is greyed out. See this thread:

http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=169851&Page=0

Of course, my experience above was several versions of Vegas 4.0 ago. Perhaps this has been changed in the interim?

Can anyone from SoFo (umm.. excuse me, Sony Digital Pictures) answer this?