Recording audio - Why MiniDisc would be a bad choice

Edin1 wrote on 7/3/2004, 5:35 PM
To save you from wasting time on reading this whole message, short conclusion about MiniDisc portable Player/Recorder is here:

Pros: Very good audio quality, long battery life, small profile, relatively cheap media, longer recording times through Mono and lower quality setting

Cons: No digital transfer to PC or any other device; only analog capture from the headphones output possible, and therefore the amount of recording time is the amount of transfer time; a huge setback! The audio quality also suffers to some extent because of digital>analog>analog amplifier>analog transfer>digital conversion.


I've bought a Sony MiniDisc player (MZ-NF810CK) about a year ago, as I needed it for a radio station. My primary use for it was recording interviews, and doing transfers of recorded radio shows on MiniDisc to computer, and then Audio CD.
This specific model had the most features and capabilities, and was the most expensive one at that time ($279.99 at Good Guys).
It has Line input (electrical and optical in the same jack), Mic input (Stereo!), USB jack, and headphones output.
Here are the pros and cons of using MIniDisc:
GOOD FEATURES:
1. Very god audio quality - clear sound, whether you use Line-in or Mic-in, very low nise circuitry; the noise floor of your microphone is pretty much the noise floor of the recording, as MD Player/Recorder hardly adds any
2. Very long battery life - One AA battery will give you at least 12 hours of recording time, more than the internal rechargeable battery (at least 7 hours), and you can use both for at least about 22 hours of recording time; playback time is about 3 times longer: amazing!
3. Ability to record in Mono mode, which doubles the recording time of the disc
4. Ability to record at lower quality setting, allowing for longer recording times
5. Good anti-skip protection
6. Small physical size of both player and discs
7. Relatively cheap media
8. Discs enclosed, and therefore protected from dust, scratches, fingerprints
9. Pretty fast response to commands, as well as powering on

BAD OR NO FEATURES:
1. No USB MiniDisc Player to PC capability, only from PC to MD Player/Recorder;
This is the biggest problem of portable MD Players, as the only output you have is the analog headphones output. This means that you are loosing some quality because it is not LINE out, and because you have to capture that audio again with your computer sound card, which also adds some noise to the audio. As bad, or even worse thatn that is the fact that you have to transfer this audio at 1x speed (realtime), that way spending at least the same amount of time you spent on recording the audio. If you have 12 hours of audio material, you will need 12 hours just to transfer it from MD to anything else. All of the State-of-the-art technology used in MD players means nothing when you want to transfer MD digitally to anything else. Sony gets two thumbs down because fo this!
2. If using MD Recorder for recording sound track for video shooting, you will need to manually synchronize the audio with video; many times, wireless mic connected to camcorder's line input saves you from a lot of time-wasting and trouble. This is not really a lack of the MD device, just an advice on saving time and energy when shooting videos.

Comments

farss wrote on 7/3/2004, 6:03 PM
You can get portable minidisc units that have balanced mic inputs as well as USB I/O and SPDIF. Not from Sony though it seems.
Marantz make such a unit but all of this kind of kit is much larger and is kind of eclipsed by the newer CF/microdrive recorders.
Edin1 wrote on 7/3/2004, 7:53 PM
Exactly my point!
You can get better, cheaper, often smaller portable digital recorders based on solid state memory. And almost always, these recorders will let you digitally transfer your audio to the computer. No dumb copyright protections that usually cripple the user, and don't have much usefulness in the real world.
By the time (useful) MD devices become cheap, other digital devices will become even cheaper.
ImdurC wrote on 7/3/2004, 9:00 PM
Funny that I've just taken the first steps towards using minidisc in a bigger way!

First of all, like Farss said, you can get NetMD minidisc players that deal with usb connections. This means that you can send the data completely digitally to and from the computer. As easy as drag and drop. The NetMD players are great because they actually support more formats like MP3 or uncompressed wavs.
And I've discovered some cheap mics (£10 and £20) that sound amazing when plugged into my MD. Btw, I'm an audio guy, so I'm not easily amazed!

Secondly, I'm buying a minidisc deck to play recordings through a digi-optical cable to my PC. Slow because it's realtime. Yes. But the quality is superb. I've been researching this for a year and a half. And I am now in the position to finally go ahead with the idea for video editing jobs. It's a great format for cheap, but effective results.

If you don't like the format, don't mix it with your video editing. Synchronising can take time. But if you take some precautions like making a sound on both camera and minidisc (clapper board noise, etc.) you can make things work easier in the editing stages.
I did some tests on the above (clapper board) with a video and it works well. I like having the camera sound and an external source (the MD) for extra mixing.

Peace,
Adam.
Edin1 wrote on 7/3/2004, 9:42 PM
To make it even shorter; I don't know if any portable digital recorders can beat the quality and state-of-the-art electrical and mechanical design, and audio circuitry of MDs, but their lack of digital AND faster than real-time transfer from MD to PC make it a big setback, so big that many, if not most, people will ignore the quality to save the time. I know that I will.

You can find some good MP3 recorders at much lower prices, and the sound quality is not easily distinguishable from MD. Oh yes, and they offer anywhere between 30 and more than 100 times the real-time transfer speed!
I can finish the transfer and even enjoy the weekend, while some other guy works on transfering audio from MD. In the end, almost no one will hear the difference, nor appreciate the higer fidelity offered by MD. The guy who wasted the time is the loser.

I agree with you on the quality, as I have dealt with audio a lot. The quality is amazing, but as you start to work with longer projects and video, you will see that it can take a great deal of time, and slow you down significantly.
Imagine if you had days of audio recording! In such case, I would rather bring my desktop computer and use a wireless mic, as the time saving will be monstruous compared to using MD. Even with an uncompressed, WAV format, I can transfer one whole day (24 hours, ~15GB) of CD quality stereo audio in about 6-7 minutes (Hard Drive to Hard Drive) instead of 24 hours with MD.
Although you will extremely rarely have more than 12 hours of audio/video footage to transfer, I did recently have about 22 hours of in-class audio session, where they had a wireless and a wired mic with speakers, connected to a desktop PC, and recorded that way. Since it was mono, it was even faster to transfer between Hard Drives, while MD would still need the real time of 22 hours, regardless of channel and quality settings.
ImdurC wrote on 7/4/2004, 11:21 AM
If you look for them, you can find portable MDs with a digital out. They do exist. And as I mentioned before, NetMDs have usb connections to send tracks to and from your NetMD at 32x or 64x.

[Word of warning, look for other software to transfer with NetMD. cause official stuff will limit your use. Especially getting recordings off your MD via the usb. I've heard that you can get hacked software for this!]

MP3 isn't better or even the same as MD. I urge you to find reviews comparing these two because, it will show you real world results. I love both formats. So, don't think that I don't like MP3 because I do! Just so you know. :)
Plus, the problem with MP3 players are the memory costs or the recompressing of the MP3 material in post. And like I said, a lot of the NetMDs can play your MP3/Wav/WMAs as well! I think that really makes more sense, don't you?

"In the end, almost no one will hear the difference, nor appreciate the higer fidelity offered by MD. The guy who wasted the time is the loser."

First of all, there is no loser. I think it's wrong to say that. We don't all agree and that's fine. Secondly, if I can hear the difference between MP3 and MD, who's to say that I'm the only one? I know a lot of people that don't like using MP3 anymore and have started using lossless - like Flac. I still use MP3 because it's a handy format. But definitely not as a recording format. And playback of MP3 for video sound will not stand up against a good MD.

As for time synchronising... Well, yes it might take more time. Personally, I strive for quality. And that means spending time to get things right.
Plus, I've done it plenty before, so I'm actually very fast at it now. It's something that has to be experienced through practice and planning. And remember, this is similar to how film is done. Sound is synced up through something like timecode. I just use a marker sound at the beginning and end of each take to identify recording points on both camera and MD.

"Imagine if you had days of audio recording!"

I'd take the easy route - attach the sound from MD to the video via timecode. Trust me, it doesn't take long. I'm amazed hardly anyone knows about it.

"I can transfer one whole day (24 hours, ~15GB) of CD quality stereo audio in about 6-7 minutes (Hard Drive to Hard Drive) instead of 24 hours with MD"

Like I said, same with NetMD. Probably in the way - dumping files to your PC etc. Just remember the hacked software!
I'm actually not resting on just one format (MD). I've also planned/tested my hard disk recorder (not portable) for 24-bit/96kHz recordings of film sound. I believe in combining that and the MD idea together. Personally, I'd use a portable MD recorder stashed on the actor for close-up sound!

Finally, if you don't like MD, don't use it. Find the best route for you. I used to think the exact same as you about the format.

Peace,
Adam.
mark2929 wrote on 7/4/2004, 11:30 AM
I find when transferring MD to the Computer its a good time to listen to what you have recorded .
DGates wrote on 7/4/2004, 3:43 PM
Sony now has Hi-MD, a revamped version of MD that transfers up to 100x faster than real time. A low-end model is already on sell, but units with a mic input are due next month.

NetMD, as incorrectly mentioned above, does NOT transfer audio recorded via a microphone to the computer at 32x or 64x.
biggles wrote on 7/4/2004, 5:59 PM
I use the iRiver iHP-120 - external mic. in (both manual and AGC), line in, analogue and optical IN/OUT, USB2. File transfer is therefore 'drag and drop'!

20G HD and is also available in a 40G 'flavour'. Since getting this, my MD (a Sony MZ-N10) has stayed in the cupboard!
ImdurC wrote on 7/4/2004, 8:46 PM
I thought I heard that cracked software was available to combat the restrictions made my Sony and the software (sonicstage). Can't find it. Maybe I was dreaming! Looks like the NetMDs are crap. But I'm still sticking with my optical transfer of the recordings.

On the NetMD situation. The below item is not what I thought it would be. But it's something for those wanting a quick solution...
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http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/press/pr2719.html
http://www.minidisco.com/mdport-io.html
http://www.xitel.com/product_mdpio.htm
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http://christian.klukas.bei.t-online.de/files/netmd/winNetMD.htm - Almost the upload capability people want. Close...

Adam.