I'm not seeing how to do that. I can change the project template to 1920x1080x60p, but when I go to render it I can't change the template to 60p.

I started with the render template "AVCHD 1920x1080-60i 5.1 Surround".

The only options for "Frame rate" are 25.000 (PAL) and 29.970 (NTSC). There is no option for 59.940 (Double NTSC) there.

The "Field order" options are greyed out, so I can't even change it to progressive scan at any frame rate using the AVCHD video format.

Also, the highest bit rate that I can select is 16Mbps. I want to be able to render in the same format as the camcorder, which is 28Mbps.

Please let me know if I am doing something wrong. Thanks for your help.

I had some of these same compatibility and setting questions a couple weeks ago about the same thing (1080/60p compatibility questions), but no one responded. I emailed Sony but I haven't gotten anything from them either. In researching more it looks like the PS/28Mbps mode is not compatible with anything. The FX/24Mbps mode can be burned to BluRay. The FH/17Mbps mode can be burned to DVD but only played in BluRay players. I was also wondering if I could put older clips that are standard definition 60i in the same project with HD progressive clips (60p). I don't have the cx700v yet but plan on getting one soon. I would like to understand these compatiblility issues first. I agree that you would want to use the best quality settings but it looks like Vegas can't handle them yet.

Yes, I can put whatever I want in a 1080/60p project. I can mix HD with SD and photos, no problem. Vegas is really great about importing anything and bringing it all into one project. It even let me put a 320x180x25p MP4 from youtube in the same project as a 1080/60p file. The only problem comes when it comes to output.

I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that Vegas simply can't render in the same format that my CX700V creates, which is pretty disappointing considering that they are both Sony products. But, in a sad kind of way, I expected this situation. When I bought my HDR-SR1, AVCHD in general wasn't supported by much of anything. And, now it is everywhere. So, I'm sure the software will eventually catch up, and then I'll be glad that I have the raw footage in 1080/60p.

It appears that I can output to 1080/60p in MPEG-2 format using whatever absurd bit rate I choose. So, it is possible to output 1080/60p, just not in AVCHD format. I would like AVCHD for the smaller file size. And, that's what I've always done with editing video in the past ... saving my edited master to the same format as the source footage. Also, PS/28Mbps is compatible with something ... my PS3!

So, Sony, please add support for rendering to AVCHD 1080/60p. Thanks!

Thanks for answering my question about putting different file tpyes in one project - good to know. I don't have a PS3 so I guess I would have to use the camera to watch the videos shot in the PS mode. I sometimes need to put videos on discs to play on other computers, etc. and I don't think the 28Mbps mode is allowed for either BluRay or DVDs according to the online manual.
When you transfer the files to your computer do you use the camcorder software or Vegas? Some people say the original files are .MTS and then convert to .m2ts. Is that what you've experienced and if so does that mean the original file is changed/recompressed in some way? And how do you like the camera? I've been reading reviews which seems mixed. I've been waiting for progressive and it's finally here; now I just have to be able to figure out the editing and output issues. Hopefully Sony will reply to my email soon.

.MTS is the same as .m2ts. The latter came first for Blu-ray, and the former was invented for AVCHD cameras which use the old 8.3 capital letter file name restrictions. Just rename your .MTS to .m2ts and you have "converted" it.

"The only options for "Frame rate" are 25.000 (PAL) and 29.970 (NTSC). There is no option for 59.940 (Double NTSC) there."

You don't have to choose one of the options there... just TYPE your own in. Highlight "29.97" and type 59.94 over top of it.

"The "Field order" options are greyed out, "

Your render template has to be set on either .AVC or MP4.

M2TS will not let you render at 60p. I would imagine because both Blu Ray and "AVCHD" do not officially support 60p.

Render out separate audio/video files (a AVC file and a AC3 file), then use something like TsmuxeR (free download) to mux over to a M2TS (TsmuxeR will not re-encode). The AVC template will alco let you render a bitrate as high as 20Mb/s.

DON'T use the 'studio' ac3 encoder when doing your AC3 file (it's not very good to say the least) Use the PRO encoder only.

I've been following this thread with some interest, and have hesitated replying because I do not have any experience with a PS3. That said, I believe the PS3 will play h.264 - correct? Why not use the MainConcept AVC/AAC encoder and create a custom template as follows?


I think you'll be pleased with the results. By the way, and this is important: be sure to use the Match Media Settings icon to set your Project Properties to your source clip.


Edit: The Following Audio settings must be set manually (see correction a few posts down).


Good Luck!
...Jerry

"Why not use the MainConcept AVC/AAC encoder and create a custom template as follows?"

It would depend on the audio. The mainconcept encoder will not do surround sound... which these cams have. So if you use this method you will lose your surround sound (if you recorded in surround that is)

EDIT:
Although interesting... I suppose you could spit out a MainConcept MP4 with no audio and then a separate AC3 file... then use TSmuxeR to mux over to a M2TS.
I haven't tried that but I don't see why it WOULDN'T work.

"I haven't tried that but I don't see why it WOULDN'T work. "

Actually I just now did try it... and it seems TsmuxeR won't take the mainconcept mp4 file.

Something else interesting though.
I rendered out a 60p file with SONY avc and with MainConcept avc and compared. Even though I SET AND DOUBLE CHECKED MainConcept at 59.94, the resulting file shows 29.97.

Using MediaInfo... the left (Sony AVC) shows 59.94 while the right (MainConcept) shows the output file at 29.97.
Not sure if it's a mainconcpt bug or me??? Can some one double check this for me?

"It would depend on the audio. The mainconcept encoder will not do surround sound... which these cams have."Good Point! I'd lost sight of the audio requirements. I'll post some more in a separate post, but I want to keep the following comment separate for the OP.

When using a "Match Media Properties" to set your project properties, the 5.1 Surround Sound is not automatically set you must do in manually. See the following panel:



...Jerry

Okay, on to the other questions.

First, here's the MediaInfo settings for my MainConcept Render - it does show 59.94


I also, when down the path of using the Sony AVC encoder to produce a .mp4 with 5.1 sound - maybe this is against h.264 rules as I got a render error (render w/o audio worked fine).


...Jerry

PS: My source is 1920x1080 60p 5.1 surround from my Panny TM700 - not sure if that makes a difference in these tests.
Edit; One more thing - my testing is in Vegas 10.0c, 64bit.
Edit2: Rob, I notice your MC render is VBR, whereas mine is CBR - could that be the problem? My render settings are several posts up.

"I also, when down the path of using the Sony AVC encoder to produce a .mp4 with 5.1 sound - maybe this is against h.264 rules as I got a render error (render w/o audio worked fine)."

MP4 is a container format which does not support Dolby Digital (AC3). You must use a M2TS container (which is why you need TSmuxeR... the sony avc encoder and dolby encoder will in fact produce the proper files... it just won't stick them in a M2TS container)

I'm not sure Bitrate has much to do with it.... I think I just screwed up some where. If you're getting 59.94 from mainconcept then that's good enough.

Okay, here's another possibility - render to .wmv. It supports both 60p & 5.1 Surround. And, according to Google, wmv's play in a PS3. Does the PS3 support the wmv/wma surround sound? I dunno, might be worth a test.

In any case, here's the custom render settings I used:



And here's the MediaInfo specs of the render:



Good Luck!
...Jerry

"Jerry, yes the PS3 can play WMV."Tiger,

I'm actually more concerned as to whether the PS3 will play the 5.1 audio associated with the .wmv.

Here's a test for you. I've zipped up some renders. You can download them here Caution: It's 129MB. There are 3 files zipped up in the download. Let me know which, if any, play in your PS3 - and whether you get the 5.1 sound.

...Jerry

Thanks so much for helping, Rob Franks and Jerry. This is great info.

Sorry about the above deleted post. I realized that I wasn't looking at the correct file that was generated by tsmuxer, so here is my updated post ...

I tried Rob's method, and have mixed results.

Here is the MediaInfo from my source clip from the CX700V. Note that the bit rate of the video stream is 24.8 Mbps. I assume that this is the average bitrate achieved by the variable bit rate algorithm.

http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss15/QqmoarSWC/test_1080p60_source.jpg

Rendering to Sony AVC with Rob's settings gives me this ...

http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss15/QqmoarSWC/test_1080p60_avc.jpg

I was surprised that the maximum bit rate was 26 Mbps even though the template would reset to 20 Mbps if I typed in a higher value. This doesn't show me what the average bitrate is, though.

However, after I ran my streams through tsmuxer, MediaInfo shows that the average bit rate of the video stream is 16.9 Mbps.

http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss15/QqmoarSWC/test_1080p60_tsmuxer_out.jpg

This resulting m2ts does play on my PS3. But, I can see a little bit of loss in video quality relative to the source footage, probably due to the lower bit rate.

Also, I can hear a difference in the audio, even using the Pro AC3 template. The souce footage is a bit louder and seems "fuller" to me. But my ears aren't as good as they used to be, and that is really a separate issue from the 60p discussion.

Jerry, yes the PS3 can play WMV. I had to enable something in the PS3 settings to support that, but it does work. So, I'll give that a try and let you know if it works or not. I'll play around with the MainConcept AVC, as well.

So far, you guys have helped make a big step from where I was, so thank you very much for that. I'm still not able to produce the same format as the camcorder with AVC at 28 Mbps, though. And, these are a lot of hoops to jump through. If Sony is reading this, a render template that is the same as the camcorder source footage would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for your help!

"Jerry, yes the PS3 can play WMV."See my post, one up from yours.

Btw, you don't have to delete a post and repost, you can merely click the "Edit" link in the lower right of your post.

...Jerry

Thanks, Jerry. You are right, I should have just edited my post, instead of deleting it.

I tested your video clips, and they all play the video. As you feared, the WMV has no aduio at all. The M4V and MP4 both play the audio, and the surround sound works perfectly.

"As you feared, the WMV has no aduio at all. The M4V and MP4 both play the audio, and the surround sound works perfectly."Arrghh! I was scared of that... I'm going to have to invoke the "H" word (musicvid are you tuned in?) - "HandBrake" What I did was to render a WMV with 5.1 sound. The used that render as a source for HandBrake, which will put 5.1 AAC in an mp4 container - that's the .mp4 I gave you.

We've proven that this will work, but I'm thinking that Rob's muxing method might be a better way to go as it involves only one video render. (also, I'm not so sure how great WMV is as an intermediate). I'd love to suggest that you render to a DNxHD or MXF intermediate, but the 5.1 is problematic.

Others may comment.

...Jerry

PS: Search this forum for "Handbrake" there's lots of discussion.

@joejon

Reading back through this thread, I noticed you still had a couple questions that went unanswered. So, here are my responses.

When I transfer the files from the camcorder to my computer, I simply copy the files with Windows Explorer. I was initially frustrated that I could not do that. It kept saying that the files were in use when I tried to copy them. So, I had to use the Sony Picture Motion Browser (PMB) software to get the files on my computer. But, then I realized that there is a setting on the camcorder called "USB Connect Setting". The default option was "MTP", and that is what was preventing me from copying the files manually. Changing this setting to "Mass Storage" allowed the camcorder to behave as an external hard drive, and then I could copy the files without using the Sony software.

When I copy the files manually, they have the extension ".mts", and when I use PMB, they have the extension ".m2ts". But, as PeterDuke pointed out, they are the same thing. The files are not recompressed, just renamed.

Also, it may be obvious, but the PS/28Mbps files also play fine on my Win7 PC with Windows Media Player. So, as long as someone else had the correct codec installed and a decent graphics card, you could burn these files to a disc and someone else could play them on another computer by simply double clicking them.

Overall, I am very happy with the HDR-CX700V camcorder. I'm definitely not sending it back. It is really a lot better than my HDR-SR1. Smaller, lighter, better low light performance, wider angle lens, and of course 1920x1080x60p. I had hoped it would be even better in low light, but I think that I had unrealistically high expectations. I also would have liked a USB 3.0 connection for faster file transfers, since I have support for that on my computer. I can't compare it to the Panasonic 60p camcorders. My only real complaint is not being able to render my edited videos back to the same format of the camcorder, but that really isn't the camcorder's fault. I'm sure that capability will come in due time, and I'll have lots of raw footage waiting on my hard drive for that day.

Thanks so much for the information. At least now I feel better about buying the camera which I'll do within a couple weeks. I have a lot of Digital8 clips and I may have to use some of those with clips from the cx700v when I get it. I know the quality of the pictures will be miles apart but at least now I know I can use both in the same project. I too was hoping for 3.0 usb, but at least Sony is now progressive, which is what I've been waiting for. I looked at all the screen shots in this thread and then looked at the menus in Vegas on my computer. It looks like Vegas 9 has all the same options so I'm guessing I wouldn't have to upgrade to version 10. I'd like to wait until 11 is out to upgrade. Do you have any thoughts on that? Also, have you tried to render and burn a BluRay disc? If you have what are your render settings? Thanks again for your help because I didn't get any responses to my original post a few weeks ago.

I prefer to use PMB for transfers because each clip is renamed according to shooting day and time, which is important to me. Also, if any clip would be longer than 2GB it is segmented on the camera disk (or card) to comply with the file system limits. PMB glues these back together again during the transfer, if you are going to an NTFS file system. The transfer using PMB was also much quicker than using Windows Explorer.