render to M2t...

DJPadre wrote on 1/3/2008, 6:20 AM

ok, well ive got 2 machines here and a quad core system awaiting to be installed..

I been working with some HDV footage, and i only ran some levels and some colour balance filters, then rendered out.

On the quad core, i was getting about 5fps render times.. 3x realtime or so actually..
so a 20min clip took 2 hours to render...
When rendering that same clip to Cineform AVI, it took jsut as long..

Now, i imported the Cineform AVI and rendered THAT out to M2t, to be put ot disc and sent to the client, and would you believe it, 20min AVI on a dual core 1.73ghz with 1gb ram took 2 hours.. this is a 20minute clip with NO effects whatsoever...

OK, jump tot eh old desktop..
HDV playback is fine... full frame full res, no worries.. this on a single core 3.0ghz HT extreme with 1gb ram.

it took JUST as long to render...

now with the desktop renders, they were rendering from IDE drives one the read drive, teh other the write drive (Ive got 8 HDD's on this system)
Now its not HDD lag, as the CPU was cranking at 99% and the frame rate was so slow it wasnt funny..

on the laptop it was slightly faster rendering from a powered USB 5400 external to a pwered USB external drive..

Now mind you these were 20min clips, using ONLY 2 filters (levels and Colour balance)

Im really surprised that V7 AND v8 were very slow with this.. i mean if i had a critical project due out tomrrow, then id be screwed..

thoughts??

Comments

DJPadre wrote on 1/3/2008, 6:27 AM

OK and another thing.. if no recopression is required, why the hell is MPG2 smartrendering take twice realtime to stich together??

times liek this i wish i was a premiere head.. id be using an RT2 like every other knucklehead but at least id get my HD work out on time..

blink3times wrote on 1/3/2008, 8:28 PM

I've questioned the smart render timing as well because to me it doesn't make too much sense. When I do a smart render in Pinnacle studio or Avid Liquid (both have the same render engine) a 40 minute HD time line takes about 10 to 13 minutes to complete.... why so much different with Vegas? After all... smart render (or no re compression if you prefer the term) is basically copying.

DJPadre wrote on 1/4/2008, 8:27 AM

heres what ive noticed.. its closer to realtime than actual renderings, coz a full render takes at least 5x reatime on a dual core. or at least 2x realtime when not using any effects or filters..

instead of cllin git no recompress, why not call it realtime output of unmolested footage... becuase thats what this is and this is how it behaves.. add a filter and the bastard is just slow as shit...

times like these make me wonder why i didnt stick with Matrox... RT2 does full filtering with realtime output...

i know well never get that with software, but hell FCP is software and it now pukes on vegas when it coms to render times..

Can anyone explain to me why a dual core or a even a quad core takes so long to render HDV, when its only a remanagement of I frames within a higher resolution (note i said resolution, NOT bitrate)?
Bitrate is the same.. i mean even rendering from Cineform AVI hdv res to MPG M2t took two bloody hours for a 20minute clip...

as far as im concerned, this is no improvement when compared to DV rendering
Especially when you consider the grunt of the machines..
Now that the machines have had their juice quadrupled (at least), running the SAME bitrate of a resolution which is only about twice as high as DV shouldnt take this long.. Yes ther eis the frame management, but maybe this should be looked at before tehy try to improve on V8a...

Like u said, Pinnacles background rendering and realtime output literally stiches each cut and rebuilds the IBP profile. The gop structure jumps about, but the fact is, is that it works.
When i see no recompress, i see the frames jumping at every 12 frames, stoppping for a moment then jumping every 12 frames again...
Seems to be that Vegas is actually rreqriting the GOP structure while its "not "recompressing

4eyes wrote on 1/4/2008, 8:49 PM

Vegas actually smart-renders Transport Stream video pretty fast compared to my other programs. I'm referring to Transport Stream Video (TS), not Program Stream (PS) Video.
The MPEG-TS is not a time division multiplex.
The MPEG-PS is referenced to the same time base.

In the programs your using that smart-render very fast (copy) they will probably take longer than Vegas to convert it back to TS format for tape, or writing back to tape will not work or fail. Those programs are using the HDV file in Program Stream (PS) format.

If this helps, using Vegas 8a on my system here are some rendering times for HDV
2 Minute HDV Video Smart ON = 1:27
2 Minute HDV Video Smart OFF = 2:01
2 Minute HDV -> CineForm (Best) = 2:44
2 Minute HDV CineForm(Best) -> HDV = 3:10 (cpu usage is only approx 55%)When i see no recompress, i see the frames jumping at every What are these source videos, were they edited in another program? My renders from Vegas using HDV is 15 frames, all my HDV files are 15 I-frame

blink3times wrote on 1/4/2008, 9:25 PM

"Vegas actually smart-renders Transport Stream video pretty fast compared to my other programs. "
======================================================
Avid Liquid (same render engine as Pinnacle studio) will smart render M2T over to M2V/WAV quite literally 3 times as fast..... with a DUAL CORE, not a quad.

And as I said before Pinnacle studio will smart render a 40 minute hi def timeline (m2v) in about 10 minutes, which works out to about 120 frames per second.

I sure love my Vegas but its render times don't even come close to Avid/Pinnacle

DJPadre wrote on 1/4/2008, 9:56 PM

im in PAL land which prolly explains the 12 frame jump as our htz are at 50, not 60, hence the maths 4x12fps = 50htz vs 4x15 = 60htz

As for the render times, on the laptop dual core, it runs like a bag of crap. Sure enugh i can preview etc in full frame full res, but rendering.. well forget it...
Put it this way, i wont be doing any SDE's or overnight corporate jobs with Vegas thats for sure...
TO give you an idea, V4 used to render much like this with DV.. and after over 4 yrs of further development, one would like to think that with the evolution of technology, that the issue of render times would be alleviated.

I guess i wont be doing any serious HDV projects until i install my quad.. I seriously do not get paid enough to sit there and wait for a render, when there are perfectly decent systems out there (considering Studio is a "consumer" NLE ) which work MUCH faster on output. I Beta Test Liquid and it too works much better with the formats thrown at it, but i despse the applicaiton. The difference however is that PInnacle have continued its evolution to the point of making it compete with the likes of a Matrox Rt2 system.
Now the matrox is 3grand ON ITS OWN.. without the system it lives in.. and liquid is only about a grand, so the $$ to performance bang for the buck, is a no brainer for those needing fast output.

Sadly Vegas cannot compet with teh likes of RT2... despite the cost and performance. For a dual quad core system, you can buy an RT which also captures and outputs through component, uses your GFX CPU and Matrox card for filters and effects and out put the entire thing in realtime, to a variety of different formats and resolutions.

Sony need to get their act together. The only improvement made for V8 to my eye was "mpg smartrendering... " and they jsut scraped that through.

Nothing else matters. I have no use for the new audio console as i set my mixer up to behave this way anyway. I have no use for media manager, as i manage my media as i go along. I have no use for a titler that doesnt even do or even import data/text for decent credit rolls FAST.

They SERIOUSLY need to look at some hardware alternatives coz if Vegas responds like this to MPG2, can you imagine how it will respond ot AVCPro....? Gawd, well be rendering for days and frankly a machine that spends more time rendering than being used for editing is not making as much money as it could...