Rendering

OhMyGosh wrote on 3/19/2009, 12:05 AM
I have been away from VMS for several months, and apparently forgot all that I knew :/ I even looked at the last 121 posts under 'render' trying to find the answer, but was unable. My workflow is always the same. I shoot with a Canon H30 in HD, import and work with .m2t files at 1440X1080X32 29.970i. I always want to make two copies of my work, one the highest quality SD DVD for those of us that still don't have the luxury of a HDTV ;) and the other the highest quality HD DVD for in the future. I always use DVDA to produce the final product. Rarely do I have a project over 20 minutes long. For some reason I'm not sure I used the right template, as in the past I don't remember having to render video and audio seperately, although I read about it often here.For 'Save as type' I used MainConcept MPEG-2, and for template I used DVDA NTSC Widescreen video stream (that was going to be my attempt at the HD DVD). Once I realized I didn't remember what the heck I was doing, I didn't even try and render the audio. Should I just have used the HDV 1080-60I? It seems to me, in the past it rendered the video and audio together and then they opened automatically in DVDA. I would appreciate it if someone would put me on the right track for both options and I promise I will write it down and never ask again :) Thanks. Cin

Comments

Chienworks wrote on 3/19/2009, 5:43 AM
I haven't done any rendering for HD DVD (or for BD for that matter), however, in Vegas the general procedure for DVDA templates is to render a video file without audio, then to render the audio separately as an .AC3 file. As long as you give them the same name DVDA finds the .AC3 file automatically and uses it when you import the video file.
Markk655 wrote on 3/19/2009, 6:20 AM
OMG (Forgive me if I am asking information that might be better placed in another thread)...

I am in a similar position (except it is AVCHD HD footage of 1440x1080). I am looking to create an SD DVD. There are 2 basic options that I see.
- Make movie and choose the DVD WS template and a video and audio file will render separately; or
- "Render as". Here you can choose a video file with identical properties and then you have to go back and render just the audio. Essentially this is a 2 step process.

Is that right? If so, is there a difference in these scenarios? Presumably the codec and quality would be the same?
OhMyGosh wrote on 3/20/2009, 8:54 AM
Thanks Kelly and Mark for the replies. Mark jogged my memory on one thing, and that was thiat I usually just click on the 'Make Movie' button, choose DVD, use widescreen DVD format, and let it figure it out on it's own. I played the result (which should have been HD, I think?) through my XBox and it looked decent on my 4:3 SD TV (letter boxed of course). I thought the XBox may be doing some sort of converting to make it possible to watch it on a SD TV, so I had a friend take it to her house and try it on her SD TV with a $30.00 DVD player, and she said it worked fine. Didn't know you could watch HD movies on SD TV's. Something else that I found weird was that my camera shoots in HD 1440X1080, but when I did the math, isn't that a 4:3 AR?? I thought all HD was 16:9 AR. My 'Preview' says 360X270, again isn't that 4:3 AR? Then 'Display' shows 384X216, isn't that 16:9 AR? Finally, what is the difference between 'preview' and 'display'?? Thanks again for the help. Cin
Ivan Lietaert wrote on 3/20/2009, 10:47 AM
The hv30 doesn't record in full hd, but instead the resolution you mentioned. Also, don't forget that pixels aren't necessarily round, but oval, with depending on the camera.
richard-amirault wrote on 3/20/2009, 2:29 PM
I usually just click on the 'Make Movie' button, choose DVD, use widescreen DVD format, and let it figure it out on it's own.

Why do you assume that it will be in HD? SD widescreen exists.
Markk655 wrote on 3/20/2009, 8:17 PM
Cin,

The HV30 records in HDV which has max resolution at 1440x1080 by spec. Unlike 1920x1080, the pixel shape is not square. It is termed anamorphic.

High-definition video have either square 1:1 pixel aspect ratios (1920x1080) or a 1.333 anamorphic pixel aspect ratio (1440x1080). Both fit in a 16:9 screen aspect ratio.
OhMyGosh wrote on 3/20/2009, 11:08 PM
Wow, I only thought I felt bad about myself before :O I have tried to study this stuff for several years now, but I feel like I know nothing :/ I'll start with you Ivan, you said that my camera doesn't record in full hd. I didn't know that was possible. I figured it was like being pregnant, either you are or you aren't ;) I'm not sure what partial hd would be. Also, I have never heard that a pixel could be anything other than a square or a rectangle. It's hard for me to imagine what that could look like, but I guess it's back to google. Brighterside, I assumed it would come out in hd since that is what I recorded it in (.m2t), imported it in, editted it in, etc. But maybe it isn't??? When I watch it on my sd tv, I have to say that it doesn't look any different to my eye than sd. I have to go to Wal-Mart tomorrow and was going to bring my disc and play it on one of their hd machines to see what it would look like. What a huge disappointment if after all this time I thought I was making hd when in reallity it's really sd. How can I tell? :/ Mark, is 1920X1080 'full hd' and if so what cameras of similar price and quality to mine shoot in that format? And is the difference noticable to the average eye? Can't thank everyone enough for taking the time to try and help me understand what seems sooo difficult. Cin
EDIT: OK Brighterside, you really have me worried as to whether my final project is hd or not. The project is 15:15:04 long with video, audio, sound track, transitions, text (basicaly the usual mix) and is 662 mb when rendered. Does that sound like hd? Thanks again. Cin
Ivan Lietaert wrote on 3/21/2009, 12:52 PM
OMG, you film in hd, not full hd, to be precise.
Your hv30 is an excellent camera and you should be proud of it! It is actually easier to edit hdv tapes than avchd files from a memory card or hard drive camera, and also has a higher bitrate.
Few people can see the difference between full hd and your cam's resolution, anyhow. Right now, if I were to buy a new camcorder, the hv30 would be my selected choice!
Hd played on a sd tv will look sd, your hd on an hd tv will look amazing!

IL
Markk655 wrote on 3/21/2009, 7:43 PM
Cin,

Yes 1920x1080 is "full" HD. The HV30 is a great camcorder. Be proud (although it is a tape camcorder, snicker, snicker - I bought the first AVCHD HD camcorder that recorded to solid state media). I "still" love it, even though it is "just" 1440x1080 AVCHD and AVCHD was in its infancy back then).

Most people won't notice much difference on playback between 1920x1080 and 1440x1080 for consumer camcorders. HDV (and tape) shoots 1440x1080 by definition. You would have to move up (or down according to some!) to AVCHD (which may also mean a new computer depending how new your current one is since editing and rendering it are very cpu heavy). VMS also has a bug when rendering to 1920x1080 (see other threads in this forum)

As for pixels, the 1440x1080 pixels are rectangles.

To tell if it is HD or not, in vegas open it up in explorer by single clicking. Just below Explorer, it should tell you what the resolution is 720x480 or 1440x1080. Even if it isn't rendered to HD, it is easy to switch how it rendered by choosing the properties of the project (match media) or doing it manually.
OhMyGosh wrote on 3/22/2009, 8:47 AM
Thank you Ivan and Mark for your help and info, and especially thanks for the reassurance that my camera isn't junk :O That partial hd thing really had me worried. I really like it, but apparently haven't been able to enjoy it's hd capabilities yet :/ (where is Eugenia when you need her! :) my computer had a virus and I lost all the links and info she provided that I had saved!) Brighterside is probably right that it may not be in hd just by using the 'Make Movie' button. I re did the whole thing using the 'Render As' method and it took much longer and is now 948.5mb in size. In DVDA I was given two choices for my situation: NTSC (720X480) or NTSC Widescreen (720X480)???? What's the difference? Isn't 720X480 720X480? And when I do the math (scary I know), isn't that an aspect ratio of 3:2? What happened to 4:3 or 16:9? Please help me understand at least the basics. Thanks as always. Cin
Chienworks wrote on 3/22/2009, 9:01 AM
720x480 is the pixel count. However, remember that pixels aren't always square. For full screen the pixels are 0.9090909 times as wide as they are tall. Multiply 720 x 0.9090909 and you get 654.5454, so the resulting frame has the dimensions of about 655x480 (slightly wider than 4:3, but then it's not really 4:3, it's closer to 4.090909:3). For widescreen the pixels are 1.2121212 times as wide as they are high. Multiply 720 x 1.2121212 and you get 872.72712, so the resulting frame has the dimensions of about 873x480 (wider than 16:9 since DV widescreen isn't really 16:9).

The upshot of all this is that full screen and widescreen DV both use exactly the same file format which simplifies lots of things, makes software easier to write, hardware easier to create, and keeps things cheaper. All that has to be done is that the pixels get a little squished together for full screen and a little stretched out for widescreen. It's kinda like how wide aspect movies on film still use the same 35mm film stock, and a special 'cinemascope' camera lens is used to squish the image to fit it on the film and then a similar lens is used on the projector to stretch it back out again.

My apologies if your brain just melted. ;)
OhMyGosh wrote on 3/23/2009, 9:45 AM
Thank you so much for taking the time (and patience I'm sure ;) to respond) Kelly. And yes, my brain is melted, but by life, not you :) You, along with the other members, have really helped put the pieces together for me. Thank you for the math lesson, as that made all the difference in the world for me (I was a math major in college :) ), along with the understanding that pixels aren't always square. I still haven't been able to watch my second attempt on a hdtv to see if that is the proper workflow for me yet, but when I do I will post. On a final note, does anyone know the the difference between 'display' and 'preview'? Take care. Cin
Chienworks wrote on 3/23/2009, 11:08 AM
I'll have to do some experimenting when i get home to decide for sure, but i think that "display" refers to the physical pixel size of the window on your screen, and "preview" refers to the size of the frame that is generated. These are not always the same. If you have the window rather small it might be, for example, 320x180. If you're previewingHD720 at "half" then the frame is 640x360. So, if you have the preview display set to stretch to match the window you'll be seeing 640x360 reduced another 50% to fit in the window. If you don't have it set to stretch then you'll see 1/4 of the frame in the window.