Rendering confusion

FoskeyMedia wrote on 8/6/2017, 9:42 PM

I, (like I think many others) have always been confused by the number of rendering options. Current Situation: Project was shot on 3 seperate different cameras. My workflow is the put the multicam footage together first, render then work with that rendered file. I rendered to AVI using Video for Windows. Was not satisfied with the quality.... so I rendered again to MP4 using Main Concepts Interner HD 1080p (it was shot in 1080p and the end result will be used for online viewing). That result was better... but now all of a sudden I see some....vertical pixalation??? I don't know how to discribe it. It's fairly subtle and most prominane when choir is wearing bright blue and red robes (if you can't envision what I'm saying.. don't fret it.. I can't think of a better way to discribe).

The REAL question is....If I'm going to render and then use the file to re-edit...what are some suggested settings?

Comments

fr0sty wrote on 8/6/2017, 10:24 PM

Try this workflow. Do your multicam edit first, then save the project. Open a new project, nest the original project inside of it (import it just like you would a video clip). Do your editing there. I haven't messed with project nesting much myself, so there may be some things that make that a less than optimal choice, but the goal is to not transcode the video until you have no choice but to. Rendering reduces quality, so it's always best to render the fewest times possible.

If you must render, ProRes 4:2:2 is a good one, or XQ if you don't care about a huge file (though that isn't going to be as easy on your system when editing). There's also Sony XDCAM, Cineform, DNxHD. Lots of options to choose from based on your needs. You don't want MP4 if you plan on editing more.

Last changed by fr0sty on 8/6/2017, 10:28 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

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Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Grazie wrote on 8/6/2017, 10:26 PM

I use the best SONY MXF for any Digital Intermediaries (DI). In the past and sometimes now Lagarith. Why are you using, AFAIK, MP4 isn't weapon of choice for DIs? MP4s for final delivery to a platform that can handle it with little corruption sure.

FoskeyMedia wrote on 8/7/2017, 12:39 AM

I'm not that familiar with nesting projects and don't think I have time to get into that now. OK I'm going to try the Sony MXF widescreen. I couldn't find the ProRes or HQ.
TOO MANY CHOICES.
I know that's a good thing if you know what you're doing.....but I guess this is how you learn??? LOL

Thanks!!

Grazie wrote on 8/7/2017, 3:15 AM

I know that's a good thing if you know what you're doing.....but I guess this is how you learn???

It's been the only way I've learnt and am still learning.

OldSmoke wrote on 8/7/2017, 7:42 AM

What is the reason the OP makes an intermediate file at all?

I do all my work in the multicam project, editing, color correction, grading and audio.

But if you must make an intermediate, use Sony XAVC-I.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

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Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/7/2017, 8:44 AM

I, (like I think many others) have always been confused by the number of rendering options.

No, why should others be confused?

You have to understand that there are different codecs and render options, to give you the choice.

But to be able to choose in a qualified way, you have to learn something about codecs - to understand which codec should be used for your workflow and why. But we do not know your desired workflow, only that here:


"The REAL question is....If I'm going to render and then use the file to re-edit...what are some suggested settings?"

For that you could use Cineform (after installation of this codec), uncompressed like Sony YUV or even ProRes or XAVCI.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

FoskeyMedia wrote on 8/7/2017, 9:35 AM

I'm beginning to wonder if it is just a rendering issue. After re-rendering with an MXF codec I went back and compared footage.

Final Render - a little blurry with some artifacts on bright colors
Intermediate Render - a little blurry with some artifacts on bright colors
File imported into Vegas before editing or rendering - Not quite as clear
Raw footage viewed outside of Vegas - crystal clear

Does quality degrade once it gets into Vegas???
The footage is from 2 different cameras:

JVC GY-HM700 FULL NATIVE-HD TapeLess

General
  Name: MAJ40463_02.MP4
  Folder: F:\FOSKEYMEDIA\The Musicianship\Diane's Recital 2017\Raw\JVC
  Type: XDCAM EX
  Size: 3.62 GB (3,709,272,064 bytes)
  Created: Thursday, August 3, 2017, 12:20:04 AM
  Modified: Wednesday, August 2, 2017, 9:33:48 PM
  Accessed: Monday, August 7, 2017, 10:07:36 AM
  Attributes: Archive

Streams
  Video: 00:13:53.833, 29.970 fps interlaced, 1920x1080x12, MPEG-2
  Audio: 00:13:53.833, 48,000 Hz, Stereo, PCM

Summary
  [TCFM]: 34359738376

Capture
  Recorded: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 9:19:55 PM

ACID information
  ACID chunk: no
  Stretch chunk: no
  Stretch list: no
  Stretch info2: no
  Beat markers: no
  Detected beats: no

Other metadata
  Regions/markers: no
  Command markers: no
  UMID: 060a2b340101010501010d43-13-000000-8c72de18687905c00080884f85010904

Media manager
  Media tags: no

Plug-In
  Name: compoundplug.dll
  Folder: C:\Program Files\Sony\Vegas Pro 13.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\compoundplug
  Format: XDCAM EX
  Version: Version 13.0 (Build 453) 64-bit
  Company: Sony Creative Software Inc.

 

SONY _HXR-NX70

General
  Name: 00000_20170802_194634.mts
  Folder: F:\FOSKEYMEDIA\The Musicianship\Diane's Recital 2017\Raw\SONY
  Type: MPEG-2 Transport Stream
  Size: 995.18 MB (1,019,068,416 bytes)
  Created: Thursday, August 3, 2017, 1:07:14 AM
  Modified: Thursday, August 3, 2017, 1:08:03 AM
  Accessed: Monday, August 7, 2017, 10:29:18 AM
  Attributes: Archive

Streams
  Video: 00:06:02.863, 29.970 fps progressive, 1920x1080x12, AVC
  Audio: 00:06:02.863, 48,000 Hz, Stereo, Dolby AC-3

ACID information
  ACID chunk: no
  Stretch chunk: no
  Stretch list: no
  Stretch info2: no
  Beat markers: no
  Detected beats: no

Other metadata
  Regions/markers: no
  Command markers: no

Media manager
  Media tags: no

Plug-In
  Name: compoundplug.dll
  Folder: C:\Program Files\Sony\Vegas Pro 13.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\compoundplug
  Format: MPEG-2 Transport Stream
  Version: Version 13.0 (Build 453) 64-bit
  Company: Sony Creative Software Inc.

(specs were taken from within Vegas after placing on timeline)

FoskeyMedia wrote on 8/7/2017, 9:48 AM

What is the reason the OP makes an intermediate file at all?

I do all my work in the multicam project, editing, color correction, grading and audio.

But if you must make an intermediate, use Sony XAVC-I.

I do mostly events and recitals, weddings etc. I generally to my multi cam edits first, then any pan/crop. effect, color etc. Once that's done I like to separate each segment, song, etc into a region, removing dead spots and announcements, render the regions into separate files and place on a timeline in a new project. I keep the first/original project for reference and now can structure the program for smother transitions and put the segments in whatever order is necessary.

I also found it necessary to make each segment a separate video file on the timeline....like the time the client gave me the wrong slide show to superimpose and I had to render the full 90 minute program instead of just the 3 minute presentation.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 8/7/2017, 11:03 AM

I wonder if anybody runs such a workflow using a moderen NLE. It is possible to organize the whole projekt in one timeline, using original files without intermediate rendering. To have smaller projects can have reasons, but generally spoken it is time consuming to organize the projects in such a way, your footage is a render generation older (with more artefacts as you see by yourself), and - if you take hiqh quality intermediate codecs it takes a lot of harddisc space. And more - it is even harder to implement even small changes what could be much easier if you have all the original footage, effects, adjustments, cuts and so on available in your project.

If you wish to separte parts, a more appropriate way still using the original files could be do use nesting as it was suggested to you by frosty. You generate your part of the project, open a new project, and drop the project files of the parts in the timeline of your larger project. The imported projects behave like events in the timeline - and if you wish to change something in the frist project you make a double click in the event and Vegas opens a second instance and you can edit the first projekt again. If you save that and close that everything is adjusted in the larger second project.

Or you organize the total project in one timeline - what is no issue using functions like ripple edit or copy paste - that was the way that I have used for weddings in most cases.

Or one can organzie a project using markers too.

I also think you have to learn a lot about how to use the software - fore exampel, it is never necessary to render 90 minutes if you need 3 minutes only. Mark the range as loop region, and render the loop region only! That is possible for every codec you intend to use.

So there are a lot of possible improvements in your overall workflow. We are not talking about a rendering question only.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

Grazie wrote on 8/7/2017, 1:32 PM

Embrace your Nests! Luv 'em.

FoskeyMedia wrote on 8/7/2017, 1:49 PM

Okay. I respect you guys input. That will be the next thing I look in to.

Thanks.

3POINT wrote on 8/7/2017, 1:50 PM

Nesting is a good feature to work with complex projects and makes intermediate renderings completely unnecessary.

rraud wrote on 8/7/2017, 7:02 PM

Nesting! +11