Rendering Questions (sorry sonicepm)

yirm wrote on 11/26/2001, 7:18 PM
I asked all these questions a while ago on the VF forum (I think when it was still V1). I have to ask again to be sure.

1) From what I have been led to believe, if you bring in DV over firewire, and then render it untouched to disk as DV, you will have an exact copy. True?

2) I have been led to believe that events are rendered as a unit. If I have a long event and make one tiny little change (fade in at the beginning say), the entire event will be re-rendered and recompressed. The entire event will lose quality and not be an exact duplicate. Still true?

3) Therefore, it is good practice to split events around any effects/transitions, compositing, etc. that you do so that anything that is untouched from the original is not re-rendered. Still true?

4) However, I have noticed a behavior in VF2 and VV3 that (hopefully) contradicts my above assumption that rendering is all-or-nothing by event. It seems that when I render a project as DV, only the parts that are modified show being rendered frame by frame in the preview window. The rest of it, whether it's part of the same event or not, is just frozen at the last frame of the changed portion. Does this mean that there is some kind of "smart rendering" that detects changes from the source material and only renders as necessary? If this is true than this would imply that the answer to question 3 would be not true.

5) If there is no such "smart rendering," is there any chance that this could happen in the future? Isn't it an unnecessarily tedious process to go through an entire project and separate out all the changes by splitting them into their own events if one wants to enjoy faster rendering and higher quality output?

6) Finally, I have been led to believe that the audio portion of DV is completely separate from the video portion. So that non-destructive edits to the audio portion in VV, or destructive edits accomplished through Sound Forge), will not affect the way video is rendered. True?

-Jeremy

Comments

pelvis wrote on 11/26/2001, 8:47 PM
1) From what I have been led to believe, if you bring in DV over firewire, and then render it untouched to disk as DV, you will have an exact copy. True?

SonicEPM: True

2) I have been led to believe that events are rendered as a unit. If I have a long event and make one tiny little change (fade in at the beginning say), the entire event will be re-rendered and recompressed. The entire event will lose quality and not be an exact duplicate. Still true?

SonicEPM: True, but the new DV codec is extremely precise and you will find it difficult to find any recompression errors in a single pass.

3) Therefore, it is good practice to split events around any effects/transitions, compositing, etc. that you do so that anything that is untouched from the original is not re-rendered. Still true?

SonicEPM: True- this would make your final render go faster, but as above, you'll be hard pressed to see any generaion loss (and please send and example if you do- I'd love to see it). The time it would take to set this up manaully might exceed total render time if you skipped that step, so you'll have to be the judge.

4) However, I have noticed a behavior in VF2 and VV3 that (hopefully) contradicts my above assumption that rendering is all-or-nothing by event. It seems that when I render a project as DV, only the parts that are modified show being rendered frame by frame in the preview window. The rest of it, whether it's part of the same event or not, is just frozen at the last frame of the changed portion. Does this mean that there is some kind of "smart rendering" that detects changes from the source material and only renders as necessary? If this is true than this would imply that the answer to question 3 would be not true.

SonicEPM: If you put a brightness/contrast filter (for example) on a track, with levels set to "0", you will still force a recompression of the entire track. We don't consider an fx/motion/composite keyframe with a zero level to be the same as a pass-thru, since typically there would be interploation across 0, but in very few cases would you hold at 0. Maybe once in awhile, yes, but not typically (or else why add the fx in the first place)

5) If there is no such "smart rendering," is there any chance that this could happen in the future? Isn't it an unnecessarily tedious process to go through an entire project and separate out all the changes by splitting them into their own events if one wants to enjoy faster rendering and higher quality output?

SonicEPM: Intelligent rendering, as used in print-to-tape from the timeline, means that only events that need to be rendered are rendered. It does not mean that only the frames inside of an event that need to be rendered will be rendered. In Vegas 2, the entire project was rendered to a single .avi no matter what, and that is no longer the case. In Vegas 3, a "cut-list" is generated by sniffing, then rendering, events that need to be rendered. This behind the scenes cut-list is played back in sequence during the ptt process. Again, the codec keeps any generation loss to a minimum, if not zero.

If you are really concerned about render times, you could theoretically create new tracks and events for areas you knew would not need recompression- difficult to do (for you, or us).

6) Finally, I have been led to believe that the audio portion of DV is completely separate from the video portion. So that non-destructive edits to the audio portion in VV, or destructive edits accomplished through Sound Forge), will not affect the way video is rendered. True?

SonicEPM: True.

-Jeremy
CDM wrote on 11/26/2001, 8:50 PM
Hey -
I'm thinkin that Dave will step in here but let me try to give you some semi-informed answers:
1) Yes - untouched DV files that are re-rendered are basically put through a "file-copy" operation. There is no uncompress-recompress.
2) No, only the portion that needs to be recompressed will be recompressed. Do a test (turn on the Preview Video While Rendering) and watch the speed of the frames go by. The part that's fading in will go more slowly and once it finishes the fade the frames should speed by as it simply does a one-for-one copy of the rest.
3) Based on the answer for #2, no. Shouldn't matter.
4) Yup.
5) Yes, I believe this is true. There are two streams and they should be able to be treated independently.

SonicEPM, feel free to correct me.
CDM wrote on 11/26/2001, 8:55 PM
ummm. Red? Pelvis? SonicEPM? Your answers sound informed but what's with the alias? And is it really true that an event with a simple fade in recompresses the entire event. I find this hard to believe since a Pre-Rendering of the project would only pre-render those areas with fades, regardless of a split.

So, what's the real deal?
pelvis wrote on 11/26/2001, 9:16 PM
CDM is correct about this: transitions and event edge fades are treated like separate events in the intelligent rendering process, so in these cases, the non-transition/fade areas are not recompressed.

Also Yes, Pelvis=SonicEPM, from Home Machine. Can't post to same alias or with SF logo outside the firewall. I'd use the same alias if I could, but posting from home saves me a drive back to work. I posted this same info long ago in case anybody was wondering (or cared).
CDM wrote on 11/26/2001, 9:22 PM
gotcha. sorry.

thanks.
yirm wrote on 11/26/2001, 10:13 PM
Pelvis:

CDM is correct about this: transitions and event edge fades are treated like separate events in the intelligent rendering process, so in these cases, the non-transition/fade areas are not recompressed.

Yirm:

Please forgive me, but ARRRRRGH!!!! In practice, this is exactly the thing I've been dealing with in VF, and the basis for my question! Based on your previous reply to my question, I've been splitting crossfades to avoid recompression. This crossfade thing is a major exception to the rule, so this little parenthetical piece of information is vital to what I was asking. So, just to make sure -- crossfades are treated as their own event. No need to split them off?

This would explain what I was seeing in the preview window as my project rendered. The crossfaded sections of the events rendered frame by frame, but not the rest of the events. Given that, can I assume that if I don't see it rendered frame by frame in the preview window, it's being printed exactly as the source material was?

Sorry I'm being such a stickler about this. But the quality of the final product is very important to me, even if it's conceptual rather than perceptual. I'll talk to my shrink about it, but thanks for indulging me in the meantime.

Hey, is all this stuff documented anywhere?

Pelvis:

Also Yes, Pelvis=SonicEPM, from Home Machine. Can't post to same alias or with SF logo outside the firewall. I'd use the same alias if I could, but posting from home saves me a drive back to work. I posted this same info long ago in case anybody was wondering (or cared).

Yirm:

It's always good to know who you are talking to. Thanks for your help, SonicEPM, Pelvis, all others.

-Jeremy
CDM wrote on 11/26/2001, 10:31 PM
Jeremy -
to confirm:
yes, only the parts of the video event that are affected by either a transition or a fade will be recompressed. There is NO NEED to make splits wherever you go from "raw" video to affected video. I've been working on a 2 hour film for months and believe me if this were the case my attitutde would be very different right now. :)

But, also, rest assured that compared to VF 2.0a and VV 2.0, the codec in SF 3.0 is light years better and you could recompress your video with a no effect filter (like Brightness Contrast set to 0) without noticing the effects for quite some time. I know that's not your question but just for kicks, render a portion of "black" with the MS codec in VV 2.0 and then render some black in VV 3.0. You'll realize you never knew what Black was until you see the difference.

Good Luck.

CDM
yirm wrote on 11/26/2001, 10:35 PM
Thanks for your clarifications. I split off all the crossfades in this project I did (2.5 hours of footage, 70 minutes final running time). I'd love to undo that. Any easy way to "unsplit" events? I'm so relieved I don't have to do that anymore. I thought it seemed really lame! :)

-Jeremy
Chienworks wrote on 11/27/2001, 12:01 AM
Well, if it's simple crossfades, you can simply delete the parts that are
crossfaded and "un-trim" the event back out to it's original length,
overlapping it with the other event. Remeber that splits don't change
the event at all, they just trim it and automatically attach the same
clip trimmed to the remaining portion as another event.

If you had any transitions other than crossfade, you'll probably have to
add them again.