Return to the NERO / Compatibility Issue

dvddude wrote on 10/16/2003, 1:10 PM

This has been discussed over the past year here, but no one's experiences seem to be quite like mine, and SoFo never addressed it, so I'd like to toss it into the arena again for comment.

I used to use Ulead's "DVD Workshop." When it created IFO/VOB/BUP files, it created big ones, few in number. I could then burn with Ahead's NERO 5.5 using their DVD-Video template and all was well -- great compatibility with set-top players. Even using the DVD-ROM template, I got perfect results (even though others have said that DVD-Video is not the same as DVD-ROM with AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS folders, it worked very well for me, *using DVD Workshop* for authoring).

I switched last year to Vegas+DVDA because of its AC3, excellent audio handling, good editing interface, and the chapter-marker import feature. However, this is when my compatibility problems began.

DVDA seems to create a LOT of SMALLER IFO/VOB/BUP files. Maybe that's not important of itself, but when trying to render them with NERO 5.5's DVD-Video template, NERO reports "allocation errors." I tell it to "continue anyway," and it burns discs that *do* play in *my* three DVD players and all PC players. However, these discs are about 25% unplayable in my Panasonic player at work, and a friend with two other machines -- who has always been able to play my older dics -- gets 100% failure! (The odd thing is that one of his players is the EXACT SAME MODEL as one of mine, purchased two weeks apart from the same store!)

People have mentioned the NERO "Allocation error" here before, and the answer has been "update NERO" or "Ignore it." Neither of these has worked.

Others here have recently posted that DVDA creates the most compatible discs around, but I have to take exception with this -- there is no question that it does SOMETHING different in the creation of the files in the VIDEO_TS folder, and this SOMETHING is different enough that one of the top DVD burning packages chokes on it, thinks its an illegal disc, and the resulting disc will not play on all players.

Before anyone says "its your media," let me assure you that I have tried MANY brands in thorough, work-funded experimentation. And let me say again that files created in other DVD authoring packages do NOT choke NERO and do NOT cause these problems. Media is not the issue. I agree that careful selection of media is important, but it is NOT the issue here.

I have been waiting for nearly a year, through two point upgrades to DVDA, for this to be addressed, yet it has not been fixed, and the only answers from fellow users are "update NERO" and "ignore it and burn away."

Now Sony has acquired SoFo's development and I don't know if this will ever be resolved. I've been holding back from jumping ship because I've really come to love Vegas, but if something doesn't happen to fix these issues with DVDA, I'm going to have a nervous breakdown.

Can anyone tell me if I'm doing something wrong? Will this be fixed? I know I'm not alone in this problem.

Comments

johnmeyer wrote on 10/16/2003, 1:47 PM

You are not alone. The "allocation errors" problem has been reported in many forums. The usual workaround, in addition to the ones you report, has been to burn in Nero using the UDF template rather than the DVD-Video template. If you do this, you are supposed to use UDF 1.02. You have to create the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders manually. Doing all this gets rid of the error message (I have done it myself to get around this exact problem, and it does work). Does it create a DVD that will be compatible with most everything?

I have no clue.

This issue (of how authoring software affects compatibility with DVD players) seems to come up all over the place (here and in other forums), and while lots of helpful people try to comment, it is really tough for any one user -- with limited time, resources, and technical background -- to really know.

This is one where Sony could take the lead and research and publish their findings (not necessarily here in this forum, but much more broadly). I would also suggest to Sony that this could become a major competitive advantage. Many of us stick with DVDA because we "feel" that its engine is built to professional standards. However, when we hear stories like the one in this post, we begin to wonder, is it really that much better than other authoring programs (in terms of compatibility with DVD players, video quality, navigation glitches, etc.), or is it really the same, or possibly even worse (at least in some ways) than other programs.

It is very difficult to make decisions using only apocryphal, anecdotal stories posted on the Internet. Sony could do both us -- and themselves -- a big favor by doing research, improving the product (if necessary) and posting the results.

dvddude wrote on 10/16/2003, 6:21 PM

Thanks for the info! I'll try to do some experimenting with the UDF template and see if it helps.

I don't get the errors with the DVD-ROM template, though, and they still aren't very compatible discs. the DVD-Video template must be looking for... "something"... I wish I knew what! File sizes? Some kind of comparisons between the IFO and other files? For all I know it's looking for "NTSC Safe colors"! Though I doubt it; it happens not at the disc assembly step but the "burn" stage... I really wish there was a way for the NERO developers to tell us what that error means!

farss wrote on 10/17/2003, 8:04 AM

Have i missed something bleeding obvious here?

Why not burn with DVDA itself?

Media is an issue, DVD-R seems to be the most compaitble and then there's the reflectivity issue.

The other one is the setting of the compatibiity bits, from what I know a lot of players, particularly the older ones see that the disc isn't a DVD-Video and just will not look at it. SoFo have never addressed this issue as far as I know, certainly I've mentioned it before but no response. Perhaps I should shoot an email off to tech support.

That still doesn't explain why different results in two almost identical players.
This could be a reflectivity issue. One may just have a slightly better laser.

RichMacDonald wrote on 10/17/2003, 10:28 AM

>Why not burn with DVDA itself?

I suggest trying this as well. When I did some research on this a while back:

1) I prepared with DVDA and burned with Nero. 2 of 10 test players did *not* recognize the discs.

2) I prepared and burned with DVDA. All the players recognized the discs.

Same players, same brand of blanks, etc. One side note: I was using the demo DVDA.

dvddude wrote on 10/17/2003, 10:34 AM

Yes, there is are several reasons why one might not want to burn directly from DVDA:

-- You want to add extra folders to the disc; for instance, I like to burn my video disc, but include a folder called "Extras" accessible from a PC with additional information included, and the Photoshop files for the cover art;

-- You want to create a master image that you can mass-copy from later; and,

-- You may not be editing/compressing on the same machine on which you burn! For instance, I edit/compress/author on my laptop, and then transfer the files to my NERO PC to burn a disc while I'm working on the next installment on the portable.

I do use DVD-R, and agree from experiance that it's more compatible than DVD+R (although for some reason, more and more "+" drives hit the market every day, despite continued, though minor, compatibility issues...?).

I read a while ago that the DVD-R spec allows for emulsion in 600 & 650 nanometer wavelengths, which I *think* translates to light and dark purple. Light purple seems to work best for me for set-top compatibility. So I assume that the reflectivity issue is tightly controlled by the DVD spec.

Here's another weird fact:

When I used to author with Ulead DVD Workshop and make a disc, I could go into Explorer afterward and just drag the AUDIO/VIDEO_TS folders onto a hard drive. If I do this with a disc burned directly from DVDA, I inevitably get a "file corrupt" error from Explorer! Now, this disc still plays in all of *MY* PCs and set-top players, and if I burn a disc from the DVDA 'prepared' image with NERO, then I can drag the folders from THAT disc in Explorer. But a disc burned directly from within DVDA almost always makes Explorer think there's a corrupt file in there. Extremely odd.

I keep coming back to the weird collection of assets that DVDA makes. The contents of the VIDEO_TS folder that DVDA makes just don't "look" like the files in the same folder burned by a different authoring program for the same program material. Lots of little files instead of a few bigger ones. And NERO has historically rejected them as invalid for a video disc! Something has to be wrong here!

I'm happy for everyone who finds DVDA 100% compatible, and I myself can play my discs on my *own* machines. But something is not 100% "right" with the output of DVDA, and I wish SoFo/Sony would look into it.

Have they ever TRIED burning the image with Nero to see for themselves what everyone has been mumbling about for over a year...? Why does Nero keep spitting up that "allocation" error with the warning "This disc may not play correctly on all players: continue?" ??

dvddude wrote on 10/17/2003, 10:39 AM

By the way, I would consider ditching Nero 5.5 and buying 6.0, or Roxio, but I'm not going to spend the $100 to do so unless others can assure me that this will solve the problem. I don't need any of the other features of those programs.

I'm not married to Nero 5.5, but it has historically been the 'power user's' burning package of choice, and it seems to be the only one discussed in the forum here as an alternative to burning directly from DVDA. At the same time, when it IS discussed, it is usually with regard to this 'invalid/allocation' error, so...

I would love to hear if someone had the same problems that I'm having and then solved them by switching to Nero 6 or Roxio.

johnmeyer wrote on 10/17/2003, 11:10 AM

A couple of interesting (well, interesting to me anyway) things in the last several posts:

1. Rich's tests on compatibility. This is the first account I have heard of someone actually doing a scientific test on compatibility across authoring programs. While I realize that it was limited in scope, I still find it very useful and informative. Thanks Rich!

2. Now, about dvddude's problems with Nero 5.5, I use and like Nero very much, but I also know that Ahead Software and Nero are not without their faults. If you go back only about six months ago, the various DVD forums (Afterdawn, Doom9, dvdrhelp, etc.) were filled with stories about problems with Nero, and incompatibility with all sorts of machines. As always -- especially in those forums -- you have to do a lot of noise filtering to figure out what is going on. It was quite obvious that earlier Nero 5 version had serious problems creating DVDs that would play on Xbox players. Ahead finally released a patch that corrected this problem. However, there was a pretty loud, consistent voice that said there may be other problems with Nero's compatibility. Unfortunately, despite all the stories, no one really offered any tests, facts, or anything else that I found compelling.

However, as our new governor here in "Calefornia" famously said just before his election, "Where there's smoke, there's fire."

I still use Nero every day, but I have had problems with one client who owns an older Sony DVD player. I still have not done a scientific test like what Rich did to determine whether the problems are media, bitrate, authoring, or burning related. I do know that some of the disks I send to this client work just fine, and some don't. Unfortunately ( and this is my fault) I keep trying to perfect my workflow and so I am still constantly experimenting with each one of these variables.

Bottom line: Nero may be the guilty party on this, not DVDA.

P.S. If you read my other posts, you will know that I don't always come to the defense of DVDA.

vonhosen wrote on 10/17/2003, 11:49 AM

My burning package of choice is RecordNow Max (This was previously Veritas/Prassi Primo). I find it very reliable & RecordNow has recently been bought out by Sonic Solutions (of DVDit / ReelDVD/ Scenarist etc)

I find RecordNow Max very reliable & have never had any trouble burning .ISO image files OR VIDEO_TS folder method.. It has an option in the preferences (that is ticked by default) to recognise VIDEO_TS & AUDIO_TS folders & burn to DVD spec.

I used to use Nero for CD burning (ages ago) but have read too many reported problems burning DVDs (Particularly burning VIDEO_TS folders) to ever use it for that.

dvddude wrote on 10/17/2003, 12:45 PM

I'm willing to accept that Nero may be the culprit, but it DID work fine when discs were mastered with Sonic DVDit! and Uleade DVD Workshop.

Still, the last few posts have me thinking that maybe I'll splurge for another DVD burning package and see if that helps. I'll report what I find here.

AudioIvan wrote on 10/17/2003, 12:49 PM

@dvddude,
Try this
1.Do just prepare in DVDA
2.Get IFOEdit(Doom9)
3.Open the first VIDEO_TS.VOB in IFOEdit & press "Get VTS Sectors"
4.Get ImgTool Classic(Coujo,Doom9) & create DVD image
5.Burn with DVDDecrypter(ISO mode,Write)
If DVDA does something to the dvd , then IFOEdit will fix that but it may be nothing wrong with the DVDA preparation.Anyway if you want the best compatibility just get Sonic Scenarist(about $30.000).I hope this method helps
because this is what I use for DVD creation(over 150 DVD's done) & so far always 100% compatible disks(IFOEdit,ImgTool Classic,DVDDecrypter).Try & les us know if this resolves your problem.
AudioIvan

rtbond wrote on 10/17/2003, 12:55 PM

FYI, Nero 6 generates the same file allocation error as Nero 5 when using DVD files prepared by DVDA. I just ignore the error and continue with the burn. I use the DVD-Video template in Nero. I too would love for Sony to look into this behavior in more detail.

I'm am forced to use a 3rd party package to burn DVDs because DVD-A does not support one of the most popular DVD writers on the market, the NEC ND-1100A (Dell has been shipping these drives for about a year now).

BTW, the firmware of the Dell OEM version of the NEC ND-1100A burns DVD+R media with the Book Type field ="DVD-ROM", which improves compatibilty with older video DVD players that don't recognize "DVD+R" Book Types. Again, in Nero I use the DVD-Video template.

--Rob

dvddude wrote on 10/17/2003, 2:56 PM

Thanks! I printed this out... I'll try to work through this and see what I get.

dvddude wrote on 10/17/2003, 3:00 PM

This is good to know, thanks.

Is anyone out there using Roxio, I wonder? Since this seems to be a perennial problem in Nero?

My biggest difficulty in experimenting with this problem is that I can't reproduce it immediately, meaning that my three DVD set-tops and all of my PCs DO play be DVDA/Nero discs. It isn't until I distribute them that I get the phone calls saying, "Not a single one of the 20 discs you sent me worked," etc.

If one of MINE were choking, I would just get a stack of discs, clear a week on my calendar, and get to the bottom of it. All I have to go on at the "bench" is the Nero 'Allocation Error,' whose appearance seems to coincide with reports that my discs are bad in the field.

Thanks again to all who are contributing to this thread.