Seeking Advice: Documentary Editing in Vegas Pro

Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/25/2010, 11:03 AM
I'm in the process of initial post for a documentary I've been commissioned to edit.

Would like to correspond with those who shoot/edit this kind of work and use Vegas as their post production environment for this kind of situation..

If possible, I'd like to hear experiences on the pros/cons of using Vegas Pro (I utilize Master Suite apps) - I'm having to make a decision on my post environment right now and before I begin by jumping in with Vegas Pro, I want to hear what others have to say about their experiences - both positive and negative - and what challenges you ran into using Vegas Pro. Workflow tips, etc would be greatly appreciated as well. Someone who I correspond with regularly has had issues with Vegas Pro that I haven't yet experienced ( and has since moved to a different NLE) so I want to hear more so I can make an informed decision.

I currently have over 300GB of m2t files delivered via hard drive and transferred to my raid and will be selecting and cataloging clips based upon a transcribed dialog manuscript to edit with. The clips to be used will be transcoded to Cineform AVI's to edit with. I have tested using vDub using smart deinterlace and resizing clips from 1440x1080i to 720p Cineform AVI's with excellent results. I determined that this uses less hard drive space and reduces overhead on system resources as a whole and on Vegas Pro itself while maintaining excellent image quality.

For those who would suggest another post production environment - provide intelligent reasons why I shouldn't edit in Vegas Pro. I will not be collaborating with anyone else on this project. The producer is all about Edius, but he's not editing the project and he trusts my judgement in my NLE decision for editing this project - just as long as it can be done efficiently and on time.

My primary editing workstation isn't cutting edge, but it's solid and hasn't given me any real reason to upgrade as yet. AVID trial would randomly crash due to unsupported hardware (Graphics Card), whereas Edius and PPro seem stable based upon initial testing (Edius is limited to 8bit color space only and PPro CS5 can't even test HD footage due to trial limitations). Each environment has its pros and cons - not having to relearn is another reason for staying in Vegas Pro, but if required, so be it.

Editing Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

I have a WD 1TB Black drive to archive/backup project files and clips daily.

I prefer Vegas Pro not out of fanboism, but due to the intuitive interface and ability to manage audio efficiently. I will be grading as well and having 32bit float mode for final output is necessary IMO. I've tried contacting Spot privately for his insights but have yet to hear back from him.

Any input from others with this kind of experience would be appreciated.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Vista x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 5400RPM

Comments

kkolbo wrote on 6/25/2010, 11:22 AM
You are welcome to contact me and to use me as an on-going resource. I am not sure why you are using VDub to transcode to a lower resolution Cineform, unless your source is 720p, but OK.

You do not have AVC issues with Vegas if you are transcoding to Cineform, so you are good to go.

I believe that the biggest issue that folks doing long form docs in Vegas have is they fail to use standard practive (in FCP or Vegas, etc) which is edit is sequences. In FCP it is called a sequence, in Vegas we just use new project files and nest if so desired on the final render.

If you are getting a transcribed dialog script, does it have timecode, rough or accurate on it? If it does, there are some tricks that can make the rough cut fly.

Feel free to contact me.

Keith Kolbo
Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/25/2010, 11:38 AM
I've sent you a private message Keith, but maybe keeping some of the other information out in public will help others who are serious about post production workflow.

I'm well aware of breaking up into sequences or in Vegas - separate VEG files and then nesting them into a final project for render if needed.

The idea behind resizing and deinterlacing was to remove issues of system overhead, but maybe there are reasons for not doing it and I'm open to hear the reasons why it may not be needed. on the positive side, it does remove some additional steps for post as well so if it's worthwhile not to resize - I'm all for it! ;)

The transcribed dialog script was NOT done with timecode so I'm having to do the initial searching of the clips accordingly, although they were broken down into dates, name of subject, etc so it gives me a starting point.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Vista x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 5400RPM
kkolbo wrote on 6/25/2010, 11:57 AM

I don't know if you have tried it, but your system should be able to handle 1080 Cineform in multiple streams without difficultly. You would not have to resize, so you would not loose resolution which once lost can not be gotten back. Try the 1080 Cineforms and see if with your preview window set at preview | half or quarter it has any problems. It really shouldn't.

Sorry about the script. It could have saved you many hours. :(

When you are searching the clips for the takes, do so in the trimmer window. When you find one, make a subclip of it for easy relocation, but make sure to leave generous heads and tails on the take. Subclips have hard ends and if you do not leave room to fudge you will hate yourself in the morning. This is the same as the workflow for FCP by the way.

KK
Earl_J wrote on 6/25/2010, 12:07 PM
Hello Cliff,
yes... I'm as curious as Keith about the detail provided to you in your transcribed dialogue ... does it identify the clips and the timecodes for each clip to use in the final production? My first experience with scripted video was made much easier with detailed and organized clips and instructions. I also learned quite a bit about the trimmer function and have since begun to use it quite frequently in my other video projects.

I would recommend Vegas in spite of the fact that it's my only NLE experience other than a Casablanca Prestige years ago until I moved to Vegas 4.0.

I am not familiar with any other NLEs, but cannot visualize any other NLE handling all the functions and add-ons as easily as Vegas... it also provides superb audio support (Vegas really started as an audio tool - although it wasn't called Vegas back then)...

Finally, I don't think any other NLE forums are filled with as much expertise and willingness to share and learn from others as our own SCS... so, no matter what version you use, you'll have a pool of experienced and knowledgeable users and editors who are available for any difficulty you might encounter.

Until that time... Earl J.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/25/2010, 12:25 PM
I knew walking into this project that I was going to have to do the searching. The producer was the shooter and had started editing the project in PPro 2.0 and found that it was crashing alot due to out of memory errors. The fact it could not export a proper AAF or EDL only added to his frustration.

I can play back the 1080i clips at preview half without much issue - I just though that by resizing, I would gain some improved performance in addition to slightly less hard drive space being used, but it also requires alot of time to transcode those clips and if it's not needed, why bother...

I still have the original Cineform clips that I held on to until I knew for sure which way to go on this particular issue.

I'll test some more to see how it performs in comparison to the resized clips.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Vista x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 5400RPM
PerroneFord wrote on 6/25/2010, 12:46 PM
"...I would recommend Vegas in spite of the fact that it's my only NLE experience"

"...I am not familiar with any other NLEs, but cannot visualize any other NLE handling all the functions and add-ons as easily as Vegas."


Earl, you'd be quite surprised. Compared to most NLEs, Vegas' functions and plugins are quite threadbare in a lot of areas. Not saying that makes Vegas bad, but your inexperience with other options is terribly skewing your perceptions.

"...it also provides superb audio support "

This is a huge factor in Vegas' favor for those seeking an all-in-one solution.

"...Finally, I don't think any other NLE forums are filled with as much expertise and willingness to share and learn from others as our own SCS"

You really need to get out more. Other forums are FULL of professional editors, and staff members from the respective companies offering assistance to those in need of help. From my experience of over a dozen forums where I am active, SCS's forums have the fewest professionals participating on a regular basis. Again, this is not to cast aspersions, merely to offer a perspective based on years of observation from varying experiences.

Earl_J wrote on 6/25/2010, 1:19 PM
Thanks for keeping me honest, Perrone...
and for giving my narrow perspective a little light of day... (grin)
* * *
No doubt my experience isn't extensive, but then again, it doesn't take me long to recognize something I like and that provides the ease of use I need for what I do - regardless of the complexity of the projects or lack thereof... (wink)
* * *
Perhaps now that I do have a bit more time on my hands, I'll go poke around some other forums...
I did enjoy the Casablanca forum - it was also populated with video guys from tape and film days who were willing to share anything they knew with anyone who would listen...
Perhaps I can find a place like that again... (wink) any recommendations?

Until that time... Earl J.
PerroneFord wrote on 6/25/2010, 1:42 PM
Yes,

I recommend DVInfo, DVXUser, Creative Cow. I'll hold off on some of the more esoteric forums unless you have some specific needs. I'd also recommend spending a week or two in the Grass Vallley/Edius forums, the Avid forums, and the Adobe/Premiere forums.

Get a feel for how those companies support editors using their product. Note how those with issues are treated. Note how long it takes for either an experienced editor, or a member of the company to acknowledge a post from a user needing assistance. Note how often or rarely, threads go off topic. Judge the depth of knowledge of those offering answers or advice.

If you take a man who's walking to work, and you put him in a Honda, he's quite likely to really like it. Let him test drive a Ferrari, a Rolls Royce, a Hummer, and a Harley, and he may well find that the Honda meets the needs, but the others provide a better experience... even though they may not be as good at everything.
kkolbo wrote on 6/25/2010, 1:49 PM

I was locked out of the Pasture years ago. I have an account on DVinfo but it says a I cannot post and Chris has never responded to how do I fix it or what is wrong. I guess it is only guys like me that nobody wants that hang out here : ( I will go and sit in the corner and rock for a while...

sniff, sniff
PerroneFord wrote on 6/25/2010, 2:25 PM
LOL!! I've been on restrictions at DVInfo when I got short with a few people. Nothing new there! I've not had any issues on the Cow. KK, maybe we'll meet a a conference or trade show one day and trade war stories! LOL!
rmack350 wrote on 6/25/2010, 2:26 PM
...When you find one, make a subclip of it for easy relocation

I'd add to this that you could make a region in the trimmer and then make the subclip. It's redundant but I've found that redundancy handy in the past.

Rob Mack
Tom Pauncz wrote on 6/25/2010, 3:20 PM
Don't feel bad Keith...

I got banned from DVINFO years ago for asking where a post had gone and at some point even my IP address was being monitored as I couldn't create a new userid that bore no relation to the one that was banned.

You wouldn't believe the email I received from Chris Hurd....

Go Figure!
Earl_J wrote on 6/25/2010, 4:43 PM
Perrone,
which explains exactly why there are Lexus and Accura vehicles - they are the high end versions of popular Japanese brands - for those who get tired of just the ride and want just the luxury... (wink) ...

Until that time... Earl J.
farss wrote on 6/25/2010, 6:31 PM
The most important consideration here is that this is not your project, you are not the producer. You are making certain assumptions that might be OK or not down the road.
From my experience there is world of difference between doing your own project and working on someone else's. Producers have a habit of not telling you the whole story, that's not out of malice, they simply might not know what you need to know or don't even know what lies ahead for the project.
You say you don't need to collaborate. That might be true now but what if that changes, the producer can make certain decisions because it is his project and you could be in an world of pain. You say you will grade it. Fine but do you have calibrated monitors in a room setup for grading. Not to take anything away from your capabilities but trust me, it's hard, very hard to convince a producer that you can do as good a job as a facility with good coffee, leather chairs and well, you get the idea. Same goes for audio.

My concern is you could end up down a very long, dark, dead end. My risk assessment says you are putting your head in a noose with little to gain and a lot to loose. At the very least you need to be 101% upfront with the producer about the limitation that you and whatever tools you use bring to the project, probably not a bad idea to have it in writing, amazing how people can have selective memory in this game.

Again, keep in mind I'm only making these comments because this is not your project, if it was then everything changes.

You really must be able to get back to source timecode. Loose that and you could be in serious grief. You need a plan so you can ditch the project gracefully. There are tools that'll let you take a cuts only Vegas project and convert that into industry standard EDLs. You need to make certain you keep intact the ability to bail out using those tools.
Personally I'd still be using the old school offline / online approach and editing timecoded DV proxies with burnt in timecode. If all else fails you can always create a paper EDL with a lot of work.

Bob.
PerroneFord wrote on 6/25/2010, 7:30 PM
Bob,

Your post here should be a sticky. For people who do work for others, this bit of knowledge is likely hard won, and very good advice.

BITC is a lost art these days in favor of "Metadata". But I use it all the time. In fact, I had an issue on a project with Vegas once because it was not frame accurate and I ended up doing BITC as well as raw frame count on the clips.
ceejay7777 wrote on 6/25/2010, 7:54 PM
Don't feel bad Keith...

At least you got an email Tom! I still don't even know why I was banned, he didn't respond to my emails. Guess he just sees himself as Lord High judge, jury and executioner and doesn't have to explain his actions to mere mortals! Never mind, at least here you get to talk to other professionals.
Tom Pauncz wrote on 6/25/2010, 8:18 PM
yes I did - although his initial snitty response after much prodding was "...no response IS a response..."
Tom
Earl_J wrote on 6/25/2010, 8:50 PM
Very good point, Bob ...
don't do anything that isn't covered in the contract... and make sure you do get a contract...

How will you know when it's done ... and how will you know when additional charges and fees are due you if the tasks and changes never end... ?

Always get a contract...

It should go without saying; but in my little experience, many things we expect that should go without saying could have saved us a lot of headache and frustration if they were only mentioned right up front... (grin)

Until that time... Earl J.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/26/2010, 10:22 AM
Some interesting issues I discovered last night:

Clips and Subclips

Last night as I was doing some further testing with clips and subclips, I discovered that my test project, when replacing a subclip with a region of a master clip, the audio waveforms would not build. I could hear the audio, but no waveforms would show. So I closed out Vegas pro, deleted all SFK files and reopened, still no waveforms. Finally went to the help file - did a search for "Rebuild Audio Waveforms" - nothing. I was thinking this is frustrating. Chatted with Perrone Ford via IM and discovered that it was "Rebuild Audio Peaks". It seems Vegas Pro uses a nomenclature that isn't as easy to grasp as the rest of the NLE's use.

Exporting EDL's, AAF's and XML's

None of these options works well in my testing. It seems that even exporting out the XML's totally FUBAR's the timeline when imported in. I remember reading awhile back here on the forums about using this feature and can't seem to find the specifics in which to use this. Any insights into how to utilize this feature in case another editor would ever have to dive into a project started in Vegas Pro? There must be a workflow for getting this to work as seamless as possible to another NLE if needed.

Additional Thoughts

After farss post last night, I was really second guessing myself taking on this project. It is a learning experience, but the producer has seen what I've done as a shooter and my editing in Vegas so far and trusts my editing skills. But with all that said, I am still apprehensive about moving forward with this project in Vegas Pro. Talking with Perrone Ford last night, I was reconsidering PPro CS5, but as we both discussed, CS5 is an unknown quantity since it's so new to the market. The major issues around the bloating of PPro project files literally stopping editors in their tracks - ie; not being able to open them as many have discovered in the middle of their editing process, was a show stopper on that.

None of the other NLE's are an option either - either due to cost or lack of features that are standard in Vegas Pro. So both Keith Kolbo and Perrone Ford are graciously - and patiently I might add - guiding me through this process and I want to extend my thanks to both of them as I travel down this path. I'm sure there are going to be frustrating issues that will arise, but in the long run, along with film school and my philosophy for self contained film production, it's going to be an interesting journey.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Vista x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 5400RPM
LReavis wrote on 6/26/2010, 11:29 AM
I only work for myself, so can't comment on working for a producer. However, I have used several other NLEs and definitely prefer Vegas for long-form work. However, I still run into issues when editing in 9x, so I ALWAYS edit in 8c. Unfortunately, 8x versions of Vegas have severe rendering problems if the project is long and complex - like yours, I presume. For that reason, I render in either 9c-32 (if I need to de-interlace), or - better yet - 9e-64.

Just to play it safe, I also take a number of precautionary steps:

1. I render all clips to Cineform 60p intermediates - even if I have to deinterlace the original clip in 9c-32 (I haven't found a good way to deinterlace in 64-bit versions). It seems that mixing clips that require several different codecs on the same timeline leads to more problems. Cineform 60p files are especially large, but they provide the maximum flexibility for final delivery - be it 24p for the web, or 60i for DVD etc.

2. Most of my shoots are 2-camera greenscreens, so I put all the clips from one camera on one hard disk, all from the other camera on another hard disk, stills on a third, and render to a fourth. I know that using so many hard disks makes it a bit harder to keep everything backed up (I use Second Copy with a pair of external USB-connected disks, plus several internal backup disks); but eliminating so much head movement on a hard disk during cross fades, etc., seems to improve stability.

3. During the creation of the intermediates, I do whatever color correction, prep for chromakey (chroma blur, smoothing, saturation of green, etc.), may be required as I render out to Cineform 60p. That way, the tasks that Vegas must perform when rendering the final timeline are minimized, also improving stability.

4. As a precaution, I uncheck everything in the View menu just before I start rendering the final TL. This probably is not necessary with 9x-64 bit versions of Vegas, but it just takes a few seconds and certainly improves rendering stability in 32-bit versions. I also do not use all 4 cores for rendering (I'm using a Q6600), because I use this computer for other tasks (creating animations, etc.) and I want some CPU cycles for working on other projects (including, sometimes, other Vegas projects) while the rendering is in progress. Using fewer threads also improves rendering stability.

By following the above procedures, I almost never get a hiccup from Vegas (although last night I set up a large number of clips for processing by New Deshaker, and after resuming my editing this morning, Vegas 8c froze - probably because the uncompressed files filled up the 600GB of free disk space that I set up for vDub and the vDub process failed on the last clip); but after a reboot, all was fine and I lost nothing): Editing is totally stable in 8c, and rendering in 9e-64 so far has never faltered.
rdolishny wrote on 6/26/2010, 11:35 AM
With docs you live and die by timecode. So without a transcription with timecode, I'd walk from the project immediately.

The best solution for cutting docs was Discreet Edit. It had a remarkable search tool that searched everything, so you could do your logging while digitizing (which still no-one can do), or log really fast in bins, create as many bins as you wanted, scrub clips via their 'picon' in the bin. That was incredible.

Having said that, isn't Eidus a subset creation of the original Dvision team? You've got methinking about that and in fact I'll be downloading a demo now.

I've used FCP for years and begrudgingly back to Avid for many years now, and nothing has come close to organically editing fluid video like I can do with Vegas. But then again, nothing comes close to what Avid can do with, 'search for 10:00:04:25 in all my bins'. That's pretty cool actually. But every Avid editor uses something like Filemaker to log footage, because you can't do a global search across all bins: only one search per bin. Which bites for docs.

I thought FCP was the answer with Markers, but you can't search for content logged within a Marker. So they failed and are useless. If they could fix this, that would be incredible. You could have an assistant logger zip through footage and mark it up all day.

But if I was cutting a doc which requires story threads and dialogue driven content, I'd look for something with excellent search and TC support. Vegas is a good choice as long as everything is fastiduously logged with timecode to back it up.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/26/2010, 12:06 PM
Rick - I'm self trained in many facts of what I do for work.

Currently enrolled part time in Film School on top of blogging about self contained film production and video journalism at solovj.com as well as working as a web designer. My plate's pretty full these days.

I tested all but FCP, since I dont' work on a MAC, although if I really wanted, I could Hackintosh if I truly wanted to take days of my time to see if it would even work. I elected to say no.

Having said that - fluidity in Vegas is a good description. The producer - a friend and colleague really wanted to get this project started in post. He initially tried editing it himself and he was too overwhelmed by the prospect and is paying me out of his own pocket to get this thing finished by this fall. It's a trial by fire/OTJ/Learning experience for me - Really push my skills and learn new ones in the process. Much could have been done differently for sure, but by knowing what wasn't done, I learn what needs to be done in the process for future projects. Taking lemons and making lemonade (or in my case - Vodka Lemon Drops)

Project management tools are showing me what's lacking in Vegas Pro - something I hope SCS is quietly reading in this thread about taking Vegas Pro to a higher standard in features. Me personally - ditch the majority of the lame special transitions and replace those with solid project management features, but I doubt it.

Example: something as simple as going to the "Edit Details" Window (Alt+6) and being able to export that information to bring into either a database or excel spreadsheet would be huge IMO. The only option for that right now is to do a screen grab, import that into Photoshop and then crop and save as an image file - pretty lame really, but it is what it is.

I'm beginning to suspect that features missing like this are what keep editors from considering Vegas for more involved editing like Documentaries.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
--------
Desktop: OS: Win7 x64 | CPU: Q9400 | Mobo: Intel DG33TL | 8GB G.Skill Dual Channel RAM | Boot/Apps Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Audio Drive: Seagate 160GB 7200RPM | Video Source: WD Black 2x750GB RAID 0 | Video Card: nVidia GeForce GT 220 1GB

Laptop: Dell Latitude D620 | C2D 2.0Ghz | 4GB G.Skill RAM | OS: Vista x64 | Primary HD: WD 320GB 7200RPM | Video HD: WD 250GB 5400RPM
farss wrote on 6/26/2010, 6:14 PM
"I'm beginning to suspect that features missing like this are what keep editors from considering Vegas for more involved editing like Documentaries. "

Absolutely.
We've just had our PMW 350 come back with a crew that was deep inside the action in Afghanistan, thankfully all intact. I was speaking with their editor, here is their workflow.

Backup all the SxS cards daily on location.
Back home dub all the HD to DigiBeta using our EX30 in real time.
Ingest DB tapes into their six (6) year old Avid system. Two 1 hour programs will goto air in a couple of weeks.
The network has around 100 seats of Fatal Cut Pro but most prefer the legacy Avid systems. It works, it's a know quantity. None fo these editors do grading, touch audio or do graphics, it's all what used to be done with scissors and sticky tape. Since those days I'd argue Avid have really only bought two features to the table:
1) Asset management.
2) Script Sync.
Not hard then to see why Avid can easily find themselves in financial trouble and why they largely keep the lights on from their SLAs. On the other hand it's a market segment that really no one else in the industry has seriously tried to go after. Certainly not Adobe or SCS and that makes a lot of business sense.
Grass Valley with their high end Edius systems are possibly trying to get some market share in a different part of the broadcast market, their old linear edit suites have been giving stellar service for around a decade.
There's certainly a very different market that Vegas can gain traction in through organic growth but SCS really need to get with the program. They and we definately need to keep their eye on Adobe's bastard child, PPro. There's shifts in the industry as always and Adobe already has a huge market share in print and web. They've always had PPro in the same boxed set that they sell zillions of into that market. It doesn't need to cut feature length docos or narrative drama in that market.

Bob.
PerroneFord wrote on 6/26/2010, 7:08 PM
Farss wrote:

"...Backup all the SxS cards daily on location."

"...Ingest DB tapes into their six (6) year old Avid system"

"Since those days I'd argue Avid have really only bought two features to the table:
1) Asset management.
2) Script Sync."


To that list I'd add a third. And that is AMA. Anyone who's shooting tapeless and cutting in an Avid and hasn't taken advantage of AMA is REALLY missing out. The entire real-time ingest just disappears from the workflow.

Right now, on MC5, I am preparing to cut a short. I've got 17 days worth of XDCamEX files. About 258GB worth. They were backed up onto hard drive from media cards much like your folk's field backups. For illustrative purposes, I did an AMA link to the top directory where all 258GB of SxS files were. The files imported and I was ready to cut in under 20 seconds.

Now for my purposes, I didn't want to work that way. So I have created folders and bins for each day. I bring in the original dailies via AMA which takes about 3 seconds. I then do a consolidate which is essentially a file copy into the Avid database. That is taking about .75 real time because my drives are connected over USB 2.0. When my SATA card comes back (long story) that process would happen in about 1/4 real time or less.

All metadata is intact, unlike the process these guys are using now. They lose everything going to tape for ingest. The only way I'd use tape if I was shooting tapeless is as a back end, drop-dead, archive. Other than that, I don't want to SEE a tape.

If you can convince these guys to get ONE seat of MC4 or MC5, and let them try AMA, it would probably change their lives. The AMA process is absolutely the fastest method to get from camera to cutting that I've ever seen on any platform anywhere. And it's absolutely seamless.