CLARIFICATION: ASF means Windows Media 6.4 codecs

Microsoft changed the extensions to WMV/WMA when they moved up to Windows Media 7.

I was really hoping to hear from someone at Sonic Foundry. would it help if I posted test files to prove that Vegas 2 is superior to Vegas 4 when it comes to rendering WMP 6.4 compatible files? I realize this may be confusing to some people and I will happily spend time proving my case. I've already spent a day testing Vegas 4's encoder trying to get a decent file out of it.

I just can't see the logic in compromising quality. You guys opened this can of worms by including a really good encoder with Vegas 2. now you exclude the feature that drew some of us to the product in the first place? where's the logic?!

What kind of training work are you doing. I'm using MMB and mpeg-1 I have it down to a science now and can get pretty good quality.
No complaints anyway.
I'm not arguing a case just curious.
Thank you.
W

>>>What kind of training work are you doing. I'm using MMB and mpeg-1 I have it down to a science now and can get pretty good quality.

thanks for replying. I do corporate training videos and deliver them in a javascript based interface with lots of navigation features, synchronized transcript, slides, table of contents... kind of like what Sonic Foundry offers in their Mediasite product but a lot more sophisticated and customized for each customer's needs.

I have tried the mpeg-1 route, but there are a few disadvantages I haven't been able to work around. if you have workarounds for these issues and you could post your techniques I'd like to try them.

with MPEG-1 video on a Windows Media 6.4 player I have audio sync problems especially after using the seek bar. lip sync is a major issue and it would really turn off our customers if we delivered a product that was prone to that. WM6.4 MPEG-4 V3 (the codec that came with VV2) doesn't have that issue at all.

with MPEG-1 I can't get up to the video quality level of MPEG-4 v3 at low bitrates. often we have to fit a lot of content on a CDROM And MPEG-1 doesn't cut it.

with MPEG-1 I can't do streaming over the web at low bitrates for dialup users. WM6.4 MPEG-4 v3 is a very capable streaming format.

so I have been down that road, but found WM6.4 to be more reliable, higher quality, and more capable (in a Windows environment) than MPEG-1. the technology of MPEG-4 v3 is just way ahead.

I appreciate the suggestion though. I very much want to find a solution in Vegas 4, but the best one would be to simply enable the old WM6.4 encoder that came with VV2.

I have discussed this issue on the Microsoft Windows Media news groups and no one has been able to provide a substitute for the old encoder. they tell you to go find the ancient Windows Media 4.1 encoder which is the last Microsoft encoder that can make correct WM6.4 files. so Microsoft has abandoned the 6.4 people, which include anyone on Win98 and Win2000 who haven't upgraded their player (there are plenty of reasons not to).

My question is, why is Sonic Foundry also abandoning this format? they have not provided an upgrade path for the people who came into VV2 for its capabilities to create this media. no one at the time would ever have suspected that subsequent versions of Vegas would not include this capability. is this a genuine case of misunderstanding? if so, would Sonic Foundry take the time to verify my case if I post some test files? all I want is to use the old 6.4 encoder in Vegas 4. thanks.

I don't understand why you would need to use ASF files.

Windows Media Player version 6.4 plays WMV files just fine, all the way up to version 8 of the Codec. It also has the on demand download of the codec, so users who have MP6.4 and don't have the 8 codecs will be asked if they want to install them (a 700k download).

So given this, you could use WMV files, or ASX files, and cover all your 6.4 user base...on 98, NT4.0 and Win2k.

Am I missing something?

I suspected that understanding was at the root of this problem. Thanks for asking... :)

>>>Windows Media Player version 6.4 plays WMV files just fine, all the way up to version 8 of the Codec.

When using codecs beyond the stock 6.4 ones, the following performance problems plague the 6.4 player:

1. slower startup time
- WM6.4 files begin immediately
- there is a delay when using WM7+ files

2. slower random access time
- WM6.4 files seek almost immediately
- a "buffer time" is introduced when using WM7+ codecs

no combination of WM7+ encoder settings will alleviate those two performance issues. considering the informational aspect of the content I am providing, and the many navigational features included in my interface, many users will want to jump around to zero-in on the content they want. a responsive interface is much nicer to deal with than one that is constantly hesitating.

>>>It also has the on demand download of the codec, so users who have MP6.4 and don't have the 8 codecs will be asked if they want to install them (a 700k download).

a very useful feature if you are on the internet. but not very helpful if you are on a laptop at a customer site. some of my target audience are field technicians who may not be online when they pop in one of my CD's. many people like to take the training while traveling (on a plane for example), and wouldn't be online either.

distributing the standalone codec package is an option, but that requires an additional installation by the end user, thereby breaking the "stick it in and play" rule. Microsoft also requires me to sign a license agreement to redistribute the codec pack.

this additional headache is not welcome by me or my customers, especially considering that the responsiveness they are used to will be compromised on top of the additional install (see above) unless the end user takes the further step of installing a more recent player (wmp9 for example). if you want a taste of some of the system problems you might encounter by upgrading the player, go check out microsoft.public.windowsmedia.player on usenet, not to mention that some people prefer the simplicity and non-commercial look and feel of the WM6.4 player.

>>>So given this, you could use WMV files, or ASX files, and cover all your 6.4 user base...on 98, NT4.0 and Win2k.
Am I missing something?

compromising performance and ease of use for my customers is not a smart business move.

I'm sure most of us are happy to upgrade our players, but we are also video developers. I personally love the quality, features and performance of the new codecs and players, and have used them in a couple of my products when called for, but not everyone is a pc video fanatic. the features of the new codecs and players simply don't really benefit my target audience. I respect my customers and will not force new software on them when it isn't necessary.

it may be difficult for most people to test my assertions given the scarcity of encoders for WM6.4 so I will post test files and hopefully someone with a WMP6.4 player can verify what I am saying.

I have never had a lip sync problem with Mpeg-1.
I create all the navigation with Multi Media builder scripts. Check out the Demo at www.mediachance.com

Streaming is another story.
I never have a video running over 5-7 minutes though. I break it all up in segments.

The MMB overhead is light.

It sounds like you have a system that works for you and I feel your pain, having to re-gear your methods.
Regards,
W