I'm with BC on this on.

I have created disc in my trials and tribulations also that have no problems playing in the computer I created it on, any of the other computers I have (except the ones that dont have a DVD drive in them, of course) and on the TV top player.

The TV top DVD player, mind you, I specifically purchased with producing DVDs, CDRs, blah blah blah in mind. And, knowing that not all TV top model are going to work, there is a compatibility list that is available that can be referenced to tell me which will work and which won't.

Of course, I'm only concerned with the DVD sets that my parents, grandparents and other close fam and friends have - I'm not making my DVDs for the masses....yet.

DVDA on the other hand (being release 1) does have some growing to do - but I can live with it.

But this language thing - not really sure what ya mean cause I haven't seen this issue yet. Can you point to documentation for the other products that you mention that shows what you mean?

Firstly I withdraw my heated and completely inappropriate comments from early on today.

I have just got to inform you people of standard that is incorporated in pioneers DVD-RW/R media which is optional and should be avoided at all cost called CPRM. It may also be incorporated in other disc manufacturers media. SO BE AWARE.

Or otherwise you will be as redfaced as I am at the moment.

==== Taken from Pioneer Technical Information ========================
In DVD-R for General and DVD-RW version 1.1, by recording specified data (a Media Block Key, or MKB) to this read-only area, and by further adding a bar code style signal (called NBCA) to the disc's inner tracks, allows the disc to support a copy generation management scheme (with support for copy-once media) called Content Protection for Recordable Media, or CPRM. This additional generation management information is placed on the disc by the disc manufacturer, and is an optional feature of the specifications.
http://www.pioneer.co.jp/crdl/tech/dvd/6-4-e.html
========================================================

Problem being that disc will work fine in most set top dvd player but it plays havoc with your software driven dvd players because of CPRM and Media Block Key. Result in the error message "Invalid Key: Copy Protection Failed. Could not play disc."

In hindsight everything always looks so simply, I only stumbled upon this with careful observation of two nearly identical DVD-RW media, with one having "with CPRM" on the front cover.

So people if you want to keep your sanity and dignity do not use CPRM media if you intend to make DVD Video which is to be played on both set top players and DVD-ROM's.

Once again I would like to apologise to all offended party's.

Now that out of the way, if you work in telephone customer support at Pioneer Australia
it is suggested you do not come in to work on Monday as one of you unlucky persons is going to get blatantly abused by me at 9:00am and yes I am going to ruin the rest of your day maybe even your week.

Reason being not making it completely clear that CPRM media will have compability issues.

Cheers Toshkins!!!

My observation is for now so-called 'home brew" (my term) meaning any DVD NOT comerically made (there is a totally different process) which the big boys like Sony Music, others use is at best a hit or miss type of thing. A shame, but how things are.

Part but not all of the reason is similar to the recent 'browser wars' which meant Netscape and Microsoft left the recommendations of the W3C (the consortium that pretends to set specifications but has no real legal authority to do so) and thus more so than today millions of web pages in order to display correctly required not only a specifc make of browser, but also in extreme cases a specific version!

So too with the DVD specs. There in truth aren't any that are carved in stone! Again we have two consortiums. This time mostly on the hardware side each supporting what is a incomptatible set of specs which means some DVD players won't play such and such DVD if it is 'burned' in the other consortium's media.

So undless you are only trying to please yourself and maybe a small circle of friends, relatives, be aware regardless what authoring software you use, you may still hit a wall and the work you produce may not play in every of the thousands of brands, models of DVD set top players on the market. As far as playing in software DVD players, that's even a worse issue.

I enjoy playing with DVD-A but gave up on it as a money generating tool. For even basic single movie discs it is just too slow due to that weird re-rendering thing. I can do a 45:00 minute hardware capture, open it in DVD Complete (laugh if you want), build a very basic menu and be making the first copies in about an hour or so later. All this with an old Athalon 1.2 machine and a Pioneer A03 for mastering. For the more serious projects I have ReelDVD which is not fun to use but it is reliable.

I have authored many DVDs using el cheapo DVD Complete with my low end home system and have not had any discs brought back because they were unplayable. Last year I did have some coasters thanks to Stomper's thick and gooey CD labels (which are great for CDRs, btw) drying out and warping the discs, which led to the purchase of a Microboards Print Factory and Verbatim 2X printable blanks.

Hopefully the next version of DVD-A will have all this version's shortcomings corrected.

Surprise.... the so-called werid rendering thing happens regardless what product you use. The only difference is DVD-A TELLS YOU its going to do it, other applications simply go ahead an do it without telling you.

Why?

Because to make a "legal" DVD in NTSC format (North America and Japan) the audio stream of any and all MPEG-2 files IS and MUST BE converted.

True, DVD-A has several shortcomings. The endless rants about recompressing isn't one of them. Now you know. Promise, I won't laugh.

Billiboy,

I respect your opinions. However, at my day job we no longer distribute on VHS so we need a FAST AVID -> DVD tool. DVD Complete may be a pathetic, cheap piece of junk but it is very quick. That's all. Also, we don't do any software encoding, use some Canopus product that came with the RES 100 or a Dazzle DVC II. Optibase for MPEG1. If people are using VV4/Main Concept, I guess DVD-A is the way to go for sure.

Peter

To Toshkin: Nice of you to do the gentlemanly thing and account for the tone of your initial complaint. You were lucky that the Sage Ones of the SoFo forum appear to have been watching, rather than some of the DeltaForce forum posters who make their own knives. In any event, I didn't think those colorful hieroglyphics in your post were swearing--I thought you were speaking French... :\

The downfall of all video editing applications is time....and time exponitially explodes with the more filters and fx's that are added to one's video project. But what drives me up the wall most is that all the major players on the scene use the MainConcept MPEG encoder with various results. And the worst two offenders have to be DVD-A and Discreet XL followed closely for a tie in 2nd last place {Vegas Video, Ulead Krap Studios, and the other competitors), and the best well would have to be Premiere but not my much. Here are my results:

System Specs: Athlon 2000+ XP 512 DDR RAM Dual 60GB glass platter IBM ATA-100 drives.
OS: Windows XP Pro.

Captured video file length: 90 mins avi (reason for not using 2 mins of video gave incorrect indicators on encoding times.)
Video FX used: Color Correction Filter & Clipping with masking, if possible in application.

Encoder Settings: (MainConcepts Encoder) Single Pass VBR Max: 4500 AVG: 4000 Min: 3200

Video: PAL 720 x 576
Audio: Wav Separate file

Discreet XL(Got this as freebie from work as the boss wanted to chuck it out after spending 1600(AUS) was promised it would do near real time encoding by the salesman)
Pros: Supports well over 60 media formats and the ability to convert from one media to the other accross the board.
Result: Six hours (Realtime...my foot!!!)
Comments: This package is suited for a 90 year old who is sitting and waiting to die
and is still in good health, and wants to reqaulify as a Professional Video Editor and time is no longer important.
Returned it to my boss within a week and said no thank you. Bastard starting laughing at me.

DVD-A & Vegas Video 4 after update to ver c
Result: 5.5 horus. Does not include production of DVD Image and burning DVD
Pro: All in one package from start to finish
Comment: See Comment for Discreet XL. reason for adding Vegas Video was that after the update it it installed DVD-A Encoder settings and encoding time was the equivalent of DVD-A. So I don't bother anymore.

Vegas Video 4 before update to version c
Result: Just under 3.5 hours
Comments: If it works don't upgrade to version c, was quite appy and content until updating.

Ulead Krap
Result: Just under 3.5 hours video a bit on the dodggy side
Comments: This goes for all Ulead VE products, different look and feel. To simply and limited avoid using. Got it free with my DV Camera. Use the CD's as a coaster for your drinks I do.

Adobe Premiere 6.5
Pro: The name speaks for itself
Result: Just a little over 3 hours averaging 12.5 frames a second.
Comments: Without any filters and effects I get around 20 frames a second.
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Reason for the obscurities in all Video Editing application is that MainConcept sell the source to the independent software companies and they take it upon themselves to enhance and dehance the encoder by adding their own separate ingredients.

Whereas one can go and invest $159US dollars and purchase from mainconcept a purely basic avi to mpeg encoder that encodes 1.2 sec of video a second with the same results minus the fx & filters. This is my choice if no further editing is required
just mark in and markout and it is done in no time. Brilliant and affordable to most enthusiasts.

TPMEG-> It is a slug, light version comes with most retail dvd burner kits and DV Cameras. But still produces the best render quality. If you've got time use it.
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But I have been hearing great things about Cinema Craft SP and Pro Encoder and was wondering if anybody has had any experience with the software as my boss is looking for a better alternative than Discreet XL.

Your comments would be greatly appreciated.
Cheeers Toshkin!!!

Toshkin,

I use Procoder all the time and IMO renders the best quality mpeg files that a software mpeg encoder can produce. I have (and previously used in the past) a number of other encoders (MainConcept, TMPGEnc, CCE, Ligos, Canopus Hardware encoder). Procoder's mpeg encodes (again IMO) are every bit as good as CCE SP's, but at about a third the cost. CCE-SP does offer the option to force I frame insertion, re-encode segments and multi-pass VBR; but at least for me, I don't have a need for these features for most projects. CCE Basic is pretty good as well, and it's under $60.

Jim

Toshkin,

Check out the Pro Coder demo i see what ya think
http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ProCoder/pm_procoder.asp

Wish all software came with a trial/demo version =)

ps - on that note, anyone know if there is a Adobe Encore demo/trial/beta somewhere out there? couldn't find anything on adobe site

I agree that ProCoder produces the best image, at low bit rate encodings, IMO. Theyt are all actually pretty similar if you can encode a higher bitrates. However, even on a dual Xeon system it is slow, much slower than Cleaner XL (6.0 service pak) on the same system. If you want a fast encoder, that you can't tweak too much, check out CCE basic, (for ~$50 what can you expect?). I think it does a pretty good job, and it is much faster than Vegas, or Procoder. However, Cleaner Xl 6.0 is multi-processor aware, and is pretty darn fast on my Dual Xeon workstation. (unlike the experience detailed above)
JTH