Showing my HiDef Ignorance here - new XF Canon

Grazie wrote on 5/9/2010, 11:40 PM
Being "intrigued" by the new Canon FX300 50mb/sec 422, I have just downloaded a sample MXF file from DVInfo.

Vegas recognised it immediately, and plays well in Preview, but, the 38 seconds is 254mb in size. Is this normal? That means it is something in the order of 1 minute = 400mb. Is this true? How do you guys deal with this consumption on hard drives? Do you all transcode this down to a size that is more achievable? Or do you have tens of TB hard drives to work with?

Trying to slither towards HD here . . .

Grazie

Comments

farss wrote on 5/10/2010, 12:19 AM
"Is this true?"
Yes.
"Or do you have tens of TB hard drives to work with?"
Yes.

Thankfully I only record at 35Mbps 4:2:0 so not quite so rapacious on HDD space but still I have a lot of 1TB HDD.

Bob.
Kevin R wrote on 5/10/2010, 1:45 AM
Since the question appears answered, may I ask:

What type of enclosure does everyone use for swapping 1 TB drives?

External Firewire/USB/eSATA is overpriced because you buy as many enclosures as drives. Hot swap trays also need to be purchased for each drive.

I've seen a couple products that accept hot swap of BARE drives, but they seem to lack durability and professionalism. Seen any good ones?
John_Cline wrote on 5/10/2010, 2:04 AM
I have some "tray-less" eSATA drive docks from Addonics and they work great, quite durable and "professional." Whether you can actually hot swap them depends on your OS and eSATA chipset.

They are model "AESNAPMRSA" and are available from Amazon for $30.

http://www.addonics.com/products/mobile_rack/aesnapmrsa.asp



The other option is the ThermalTake Blac-X dock. I have a few of them and they also work great.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153071&cm_re=blacx-_-17-153-071-_-Product
Grazie wrote on 5/10/2010, 2:15 AM
Yes, it was under John's recommendation that I fitted one of those Addonics (best 30 quid I've ever spent!) into a spare bay that has been working perfectly that I have seen the light in using HDs as floppy discs! Marvellous. I also use this for my Acronis Backup system too. Actually, I DO have another spare bay that I may well insert another too.

Anybody wanna buy a firewire array?

Grazie
farss wrote on 5/10/2010, 4:18 AM
"Hot swap trays also need to be purchased for each drive."

I don't know about the "hot swap" bit but trays / caddies can he had very cheaply. I used to use these back in the IDE days and the caddies with 3 fans in them were around $20. Same thing is available in SATA as well. I've gone naked these days but there is some advantage to still using caddies.
With a caddie you can get better air flow and you're not wearing the connectors on the disk itself out. Those SATA connectors don't look all that rugged to me.

Bob.
ritsmer wrote on 5/10/2010, 4:34 AM
Grazie wrote: That means it is something in the order of 1 minute = 400mb. Is this true?

*Rougly* it is so:

50Mbps = 50 million bits per second * 60 seconds = 3000 million bits (Mb) per minute.

3000 million bits / 8 = 375 million bytes (MB) per minute.
Kevin R wrote on 5/10/2010, 4:42 AM
I've seen the "docking station" units before--exactly what I meant by lacking professionalism. I guess my definition of professional means a few things: industrial data center quality, native drive interface (not USB/eSATA), durable.

The Addonics unit has me real interested. I've seen similar units, but that are just cheap unreliable junk.:

Burly:


Icy-Dock:


StarTech:


I'd really like to see something really expensive, cast metal, durable and highly reliable.

The Addonics doesn't really meet my industrial quality desires either, but it appears to come a lot closer. I think I will try out a unit or two. THANKS!
JohnnyRoy wrote on 5/10/2010, 7:48 AM
> I have some "tray-less" eSATA drive docks from Addonics and they work great,

John, How loud is the fan? I was reading reviews on NewEgg that said the fan is on all the time even when there is no drive in the bay and I have a near silent PC for doing voice overs so I'm very sensitive to fan noise. Is it very noticeable?

~jr
FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 5/10/2010, 11:07 AM
Grazie, thats why they opted for AVCHD you get a lot more compression but need a monster PC to work with it.

I'd be interested to see an HD AVCHD file size compared to an HD MPEG2.

So when you getting the Canon FX300?
John_Cline wrote on 5/10/2010, 11:41 AM
"I guess my definition of professional means a few things: industrial data center quality, native drive interface (not USB/eSATA), durable."

eSATA is a native drive interface. There is no active drive interface in the Addonics unit, the drive is connected directly to one of the motherboard's SATA ports. Can't get more native than that. As for durability, I have been swapping drives in and out daily for at least a year now with no signs of impending doom.

Johnny: they seem rather silent.
Kevin R wrote on 5/10/2010, 11:52 AM
I just bought an Addonics unit. I'll post back in a couple days on the fan noise and quality.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 5/11/2010, 6:35 AM
> Johnny: they seem rather silent.

I can live with "rather silent". ;-) Thanks... I'm gonna get me one.

~jr
JohnnyRoy wrote on 5/11/2010, 6:35 AM
> I'll post back in a couple days on the fan noise and quality.

Kevin, Thanks it would be good to know your impression too.

~jr
Kevin R wrote on 5/11/2010, 9:44 PM
"eSATA is a native drive interface."

Er... close, but not exactly. There are differences in the electrical and physical layers.

Here's an interesting one:
"The external connector and cable are designed for over five thousand insertions and removals while the internal connector is only specified to withstand fifty."

References:
http://www.sata-io.org/technology/esata.asp
http://www.sata-io.org/documents/External%20SATA%20WP%2011-09.pdf

External solutions that use the "L"-shaped internal SATA connector are not eSATA compliant. Bare disk drives are not eSATA devices.
Kevin R wrote on 5/11/2010, 9:47 PM
Addonics Drive Enclosure Review:

Moved this to its own thread as I think it will be of wider interest to all.

Review: Addonics MOBILE RACK SNAP-IN SERIES Drive Enclosure
Grazie wrote on 5/11/2010, 9:58 PM
G'morning . . . A new day, and for many reasons, here in London UK . . . good take out was it?

I'm just backing up to my Addonics. Fan very quiet here . . . I really can't hear it over my main fans - at all.

Grazie
Kevin R wrote on 5/12/2010, 12:01 AM
Yeah, take out was excellent! Thai Classic, San Luis Obispo, CA.
John_Cline wrote on 5/12/2010, 1:17 AM
"Er... close, but not exactly. There are differences in the electrical and physical layers."

eSATA specs a different connector as well as increased signaling levels and receiver sensitivity to accomodate longer cabling, however my point was that eSATA uses the exact same native Serial ATA protocol as an internal connector. An SATA drive hooked up to either an internal SATA port or an eSATA port will operate without compromise or protocol translation at its maximum native speed.

For what it's worth, I have been using bare SATA drives for off-line storage for at least the last six or seven years. I have over fifty drives and many of them have been inserted well in excess of fifty times. I have inspected the SATA connectors on the more used drives with a 10x loupe and they do not look particularly worn. I have seen no evidence to suggest the connectors are going to fail any time soon.
Kevin R wrote on 5/12/2010, 1:47 AM
John,

Sure, I know what you meant, and I was mainly referring to USB/FireWire drives.

I can't find anything that indicates a SATA drive is appropriate to hook up directly to an eSATA connection. It would appear that most everyone gets away with doing it anyway, but it seems that a buffer chip would be required to make a drive eSATA compliant.

I don't prefer 'non-compliant' solutions. I like engineered solutions.

No one is saying the SATA connectors will fail after fifty insertions, but that they are not specified and designed to surpass that.

Again, engineered vs. makeshift.

I think the Addonics enclosure is pretty good, but I'd avoid it in a professional mission-critical environment. Seems reasonable for your use (and mine).

I think we're on the same page. I just like arguing perfection, 'cos I'm that kinda guy. :-)
Grazie wrote on 5/12/2010, 2:01 AM
> cause I'm that kinda guy

Oh, so you aren't sure? And anyway . . it is 'cause or . . my favourite 'cos. Because if you were using "cause" it refer to cause and effect? And I believe that IS engineer's language.

I've got an engineer's remedy for the mislaying the "key" - I have a rubber band looped into the front PC cover and looped through the key.

'Cos that's the kinda guy I am . .

Kevin very nice report. Actually I like the locking, once or twice I have reached down and attempted to remove the HD, only to be STOPPED by the stubborn locked-lever. So, me like the KEY thing.

Grazie

John_Cline wrote on 5/12/2010, 10:54 AM
"I can't find anything that indicates a SATA drive is appropriate to hook up directly to an eSATA connection."

eSATA is all about the extra electrical latitude necessary to extend the cable length. They simply increased the minimum voltage by 100mv and decreased the minimum receiver sensitivity by 85mv to extend the signal from a 1 meter maximum cable to a 2 meter maximum cable. The point is moot however since the Addonics unit mounts in a drive bay. An actual eSATA dock likely does have a buffer chip.

"Again, engineered vs. makeshift."

I don't do anything "makeshift" unless it happens to be on a shoot and an unforseen problem needs to be solved on the spot with gaffer's tape and a couple of C-47s.

"I think the Addonics enclosure is pretty good, but I'd avoid it in a professional mission-critical environment."

I do work in a "professional mission-critical environment." While you're "arguing perfection," I'm getting actual work done. Professionals sweat the details but they also know when they're just being anal retentive.