Sony AVCHD Template Inherent Rendering Problems

SMC23 wrote on 12/22/2009, 5:06 PM
Hello there,

To provide you with a brief rundown; I purchased Vegas Movie Studio 9.0b as it was one of the only Video editing softwares to support my requirements of rendering to AVCHD and 5.1 surround sound. The moment I downloaded the trial I should have known how poor this application really is! It has caused nothing but frustration for me.

In summary, there are two inherent issues with this software:

1. AVCHD rendering crash:
===========================

I have been faced with a frustrating issue whenever you try to render to Sony AVCHD template (1920 x 1080i NTSC 5.1 surround) the application would always crash instantly!! I'm not certain it relates to other AVCHD resolutions, but I would imagine it would. It was not until i found this workaround below with CFF Explorer that resolved this issue:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=650217


2. Choppy Video - Out of sync with Audio
=========================================

Once I applied the hack (this is what this essentially is!) from the above link and finally got Vegas PE to render to Sony AVCHD template (1920 x 1080i NTSC 5.1 surround), I found that everytime the final video output got past 2min in length, the video would always starts to become choppy and out of sync with the audio. I could not find any resolution so I created a ticket with Sony. Once Sony confirmed the issue they sent it to their Engineering department for further investigation. Basically they too were able to reproduce the issue and here is the response they provided to me:



"For my tests, I was seeing this behavior if my Vegas rendered file exceeded 3 minutes with playback getting out of sync around the 1:45 mark.

I've had problems playing back AVCHD files (especially large ones) on 3rd party AVCHD players. The video often gets choppy and lags behind the audio. It gets progressively worse the longer the clip. In some cases, the video will just freeze-frame while the audio continues on.

After consulting with other team members, we don't think this is a Vegas problem. Vegas plays the rendered files fine in all cases. Apparently, the PS3 has some problems playing back AVCHD files as well. Other players I've tried, like VLC, don't play more than 5 seconds of video (if that) before freeze-frame occurs.

Other notes:
- No difference between a stereo or a 5.1 rendered file
- The AVCHD template used to render the file is irrelevant.
- Occurs no matter which Vegas app rendered the file (VMSPE or Pro)
- Able to repro with other source footage.

The only workaround I can think of is to keep those rendered files short in length."


Take note of that last paragraph. They want me to keep my video short in length!!! lol. This is simply inexcusable when they clearly advertise the ability of this software to edit and render to HD including AVCHD format. Well i obviously did not accept that response so I fired back and told them howcome my original, unaltered AVCHD files are able to play on the same players succesfully? Low and behold they admited to this inherent defect and now are looking into updating the application. Here is the response they provided:


"Our Engineering Department performed some more tests and it appears that there is an issue with Vegas-rendered AVCHD files. We want to thank you for bringing this to our attention. The Engineering Department is currently working to resolve the issue and if they develop any suggestions within the coming days, I will let you know right away. Otherwise, please check back with us in the future as this will, hopefully, be resolved in one of the next updates of Vegas Movie Studio Platinum. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused, but do appreciate your patience and understanding."


So looks like they are working on a fix. But I'm VERY surprised that this issue is only getting to their attention now, wasn't Vegas 9.0 out for sometime. I'm sure i'm not the only one who is trying to render to AVCHD!!! Also this affects Vegas Pro 9.0 as I was able to replicate the same chopy-out of sync playback.

So what do i do now that they are looking into this issue. I really doubt they would come up with a fix anytime soon. So what do i now???


Anyways, please post your thoughts here on this response from Sony and if you have found a solution to item #2.

Comments

coasternut67 wrote on 12/23/2009, 7:32 PM
I have to say this is scary stuff....reminds me of my Ulead MSP days.

For the record though I was able to go from HDV MPEG-2 to AVCHD on a 13 minute long project without issue....

However I have a new AVCHD camcorder and am about to try AVCHD in and AVCHD out...we will see what happens.

I know AVCHD playback is horrible in Movie Studio 9b - they definetely need to fix this as I posted before in another thread about full screen playback.

Will see what happens...

Rob
coasternut67 wrote on 12/23/2009, 8:20 PM
Houston we have a problem!!!

I have confirmed the AVCHD codec in Movie Studio is F'ed up!!

Apparently if you have AVCHD input you cant render it to output as well. My short 4 minute project of about 6 clips crashed (froze) at 24% when it ihit the 3rd frame of the first cross-fade between clips.

The3 CPU usage went to 0% (was 90%+ during render) but the time counter was still counting....the frame count stopped at 1708 which is 3 frames into the first crossfade.

This further tells me the DECODE of AVCHD is the problem because of the poor playback performance. The encode is fine because I can go from HDV (MPEG-2) to AVCHD without this issue.

If this is also Messed up in Vegas Pro - OMG!!! Sony is going to have a LOT of pissed off customers this Christmas as AVCHD camcorders are the "NORM" these days. If no one can edit the files then how are we supposed to use this software???

Sony I hope you are reading this and it becomes #1 priority to fix.

Rob
coasternut67 wrote on 12/23/2009, 8:51 PM
UPDATE -

Apparently the problem is limited to AVCHD inout and Output...if the inout file format is anything other than AVCHD then you can render to AVCHD without issue.

I tried MPEG-2, WMV and AVI-YUV which all worked...though the uncompressed AVI was 30 gig for 4 minutes of 1080 HD!! datarate is too high for smooth playback but it did render properly.

Sony please FIX THIS ASAP!!!

Rob
SMC23 wrote on 12/23/2009, 9:11 PM
Yes, the issue is isolated to rendering to AVCHD from AVCHD source input files.

Apparently this issue also affects Vegas Pro 9.0 as i got the same rendering results. I have not tried VEgas HD.
coasternut67 wrote on 12/23/2009, 9:14 PM
Try this - Change the Video Bitrate from 16 Mbit to 15 Mbit. Mine has not crashed and is almost done now...

The default 1920x1080 template is 16 Mbit - changing that to a lower value seems to work...we will know shortly.

Still F'ed up though.... I should be able tp plaback smooth with Movie studio and I can't.

Power DVD can with only 8% CPU on my system... so what does that tell you?? Its the software Sony Codec!!

Rob
coasternut67 wrote on 12/23/2009, 9:32 PM
Well Lowering the bitrate allowed it to render...

However after about 1:30 the video got choppy and went out of sync with the audio - the father along the file the worse it got.

100% confirmed problem.

My system is Windows XP SP2, Phenom 955 quad core 3.2 GHz, 3 Gig RAM, ASROCK MB with ATI on Board Video, On Board AC97 sound.

Rob
LR2003 wrote on 12/24/2009, 3:36 AM
I am now seeing the same issue. If I save my video using the m2ts format I have issues, if I save it as a mp4 I think that it is OK. I have a win7 64b system and I have done the hack on the DLL files to get it to work.
LR2003 wrote on 12/24/2009, 4:22 AM
I have a found that the same files that have sync issues on both of my Win7 systems(1 64b, 1 32b) play just fine on my Western Digital TV Live box.

Also files rendered as mp4 play fine on my system, but files saved with a m2ts container with similar settings have the issues described above.
coasternut67 wrote on 12/24/2009, 2:01 PM
Update #2

For the hell of it I tried rendering my AVCHD project with AVCHD source files to SVCD MPEG-2 using the default settings.

To my surprise there was no issue with the rendered file....AV sync was fine as was the smoothness of the video.

So I guess as long as the input and output codec are NOT AVCHD then it can work...but this leaves limited options for making a blu ray disc on a DVD-R. Blu Ray only accepts MPEG-2 container so its either AVCHD or MPEG-2 as options...with MPEG-2 my bitrate is limited because my Insignia player can't handle 25 Mbit / sec...not sure what the limit is and then there is the resolution limit of 1440 instead of 1920.

I will have to find a workaround until Sony fixes this issue.

Rob
coasternut67 wrote on 12/26/2009, 10:18 PM
UPDATE:

AVCHD problems appear to be bitrate sensitive - I tested 12 MBit / second input and output at 1440x1080 resolution and it rendered ok with no sync issues or jerky video.

Since Sony's templates only go to 16 Mbit I suspect that is the limitation for input and output - bummer my Camcorder does 1920x1080 at 17 MBit and 24 MBit which I can't use yet because of this serious BUG.

Good thing that the 1440x1080 looks very good at 12 MBit so I am limited to using that for now...the visual difference is not much going higher...only noticeable with text or repetitive edges close together.

Still Sony needs to fix because I am certain a lot of users will want to use the higher bitrates as I would like to do FULL HD and not 3/4 HD.

Rob
LR2003 wrote on 12/27/2009, 10:34 AM
I have noticed that if I save the same project as both a m2ts file and a mp4 or hdv file, Windows 7 always thinks that the m2ts file is about 9% longer. I would not be surprised if this turns out to be a windows issue, as I am sure that files that are giving me issues now did not in the past.
Ninan wrote on 12/27/2009, 4:32 PM
I wish 1440x1080 worked for me, but it doesn't either. I've given several trials, MPEG-2 & Sony AVC, all in vain. The best I got was some 20% of the project (6 min out of 30), The reactions varied, from various error reports to shutting down of the VMS. In fact, this has been my first AVCHD to AVCHD project on the new laptop (Intel Core i7, 4 GB RAM, Windows 7 64 bit) and I'm sort of frustrated. The more so that I am not very clever with computer software and am not sure that I can manage introducing the CFF Explorer modifications. Or, for that matter, I am at a loss how to handle the lowering of the bitrate input and output. I'd appreciate if you could explain the latter procedure. Thanks in advance.
coasternut67 wrote on 12/27/2009, 6:05 PM
I am using Windows XP service pack 2...Not Vista or 7....that could be some of the reason. I am not using any hcked DLL's either...

My last test was a 9:53 long project with several clips and crossfades between and a few titles thrown in. It rendered fine in 32 minutes. All input files were AVCHD @ 12 MBit/sec from my camcorder. The input bitrate can only be adjusted by selecting which setting on the camcorder device - once recorded it is fixed. VMS does not handle the 17 MBit or 24 MBit mode of my camcorder.
Playback is horrendous and rendering these files will crash the program. Files in the other 3 modes from my Camcorder work fine (12,7, & 5 MBit/sec).

My guess is that 16 MBit is the maximum allowed by VMS platnium 9b. I tried to create a 17 Mbit custom template and it would not allow higher than 16 Mbit video. Bummer becasue I wanted to shoot video in 1920x1080 and can't. I am going on vacation in less than a week and am stuck using the 1440x1080 @ 12 Mbit per second on my camcorder (Canon HF20).

I used a custom template - basically took the standard one and lowered the bitrate of the video to 12,000,000. My Camcorder input bitrate was also 12,000,000. In hindshight I should have tested it with the standard 15 Mbit or 16 Mbit options which I will do next.


Rob
coasternut67 wrote on 12/28/2009, 8:50 PM
Well - more bad news.

Tried output with default template 1440x1080 AVCHD at 15 MBit... about 6 minutes into my 10 minute project the framerate suddenly dropped to about 2 fps and the audio went out of sync.

This same project worked at 12 MBit / second output out to the 10 minute end....but I wonder if my project was longer if that would have had the same issue.

So in Summary AVCHD input at 17 MBit chokes the program.

Output of 12 MBit AVCHD with 12 MBit input seems to work for at least 10 minutes....but output the same at 15 MBit and it does not.

I am totally screwed here (THANKS SONY!!!). I am just going to shoot my video at highest quality (24 MBit) and hope that the software catches up soon because I can't edit until it does.

I also tried Nero 9....it has its own set of issues with AVCHD though different. The file player is awesome though and can play 24 MBit in real time without frame drops and under 20% CPU on my quad core 3.2 GHz system. Still playing with that package....
Ninan wrote on 12/29/2009, 7:47 AM
I've been trying to repeat my earlier "success" which was the rendered 6 minutes out of the 30-minutes project, and to divide the timeline into smaller pieces to be rendered piece by piece. Alas, all attempts of "loop rendering" end in less than a minute result. So, the news is real BAD. I checked other fora, and it seems that also SVPro does not render AVCHD. Your experience shows that it is not Windows 7 that can be blamed, at least not only W7. In the meantime I tried other formats. The uncompressed .avi (rendering took the whole night, result: 130 gigs) was unplayabale, both audio and video choked. .wmv format has been calculating "approximate time left" for two hours now, hanging on 1% of the rendered clip. The situation looks more and more hopeless.
coasternut67 wrote on 12/29/2009, 11:05 AM
Further testing of my 10 minute 1440x1080 project shows that at 12 MBit input rate and 14 MBit output rate there are no problems ou to the end...but at 15 MBit output it screwed up at the 6 minute mark.

I tried increasing the memory used by VMS from 384 Mb to 512 Mb in the advanced Internal tab (Holding Shift) then options - that made no aparent difference. My Full res 17 MBit source files and 16 MBit output screws up about 1 minute into the project - same symptom of 2 frames per second and A/V out of sync and drifting further out of sync towards end.

The program does increase page file usage by 1 GIG during render of AVCHD - more so than any other codec...maybe I did not increase memory enough in the internal TAB???

So it would seem that files of 12 MBit per second are safe...Maybe up to 14 Mbit but anything higher and it screws up BIGTIME!!

I am going to keep searching as it seems to be a memory usage problem becasue AVCHD in and out uses the MOST during render.

Rob
Eugenia wrote on 12/29/2009, 4:12 PM
Unfortunately, you all are wasting your time here. There have been 15+ SONY AVC threads already stating the crashing of that encoder when exporting at high bitrate and high resolution (it doesn't seem to crash on smaller exports). Heck, I even had my own father in law complaining about exactly this to ME (since I was the one who told him to buy Platinum).

Anyways, SONY KNOWS ABOUT THE PROBLEM.

I've made sure of that.

And they know about it for over a year now. But the fact that they haven't fixed it for Platinum, it means that it's either because they don't have the engineering resources, or the engineer/manager in charge of it is a buffoon, or because they are not serious about their Movie Studio users and don't care about it.

In any way, you're wasting your time here. The best you can do is contact their tech support and explain the situation and how this is a HUGE problem that is there since Day 1. I've shouted enough about the specific issue at Sony, and nobody there took responsibility for it or even tried to make a vague promise about it. But if enough people go to tech support about the SAME issue (making it clear that the bug is with Sony AVC on high res/bitrate exports), then maybe they will start taking notice and assume responsibility.
coasternut67 wrote on 12/30/2009, 1:47 PM
If they have known for a year and not fixed it...they likey will not in the current version and pull the Microsoft trick of releasing a version 10 and making us pay for the FIX!!

Complete BS if you asked me but it is highly typical of Asian companies in that they do NOTHING until their building is on fire....and by then its too late.

I have still not decided on how to shoot my vacation footage next week...and I may use Nero 9 instead becasue it will support 24 MBit / second with LPCM audio....just can't make a disc my blu ray player will play...yet.

I am done with VMS and wish I could get a refund! This is something for the attorney General of the USA to investigate.

Rob
Mike M. wrote on 12/30/2009, 3:46 PM
Agree one hundred percent. I miss the old days when Sonic Foundry developed the programs and wrote tight good code. It seems that with all the new formats, Sony has just jammed things into what was a great software engine.

I have both Movie Studio and Pro 9.0c and both are an absolute mess. Had I'd known this, I would have never upgraded. A total waste of money in my opinion.

I might be a little more understanding if Sony would at least come out and admit there is a fundamental problem. And, I might even cut them some slack if they would announce some free updates. But, I doubt that will happen.

Buyer beware.
Class action lawsuit anyone?
coasternut67 wrote on 12/31/2009, 9:46 AM
I am all for a Class Action Lawsuit - I would rather have working software than my $130 bucks back though because I NEED working editing software for AVCHD @ 24 MBit.

Sony I hope you are listening...this could get real ugly.

Rob
LR2003 wrote on 1/4/2010, 3:52 PM
I just read at CreativeCow that if you run the avchd files through SmartLabs tsMuxeR the files will play properly. This does work so far in my quick testing. The length of the Video is also now reported properly in Windows Explorer.

I find it interesting that tsMuxeR reports "H.264 stream does not contain fps field" this may be what is causing all of the issues.

This program does not appear to do any re-encoding, I think that it just demuxes the files and then remuxes it.
coasternut67 wrote on 1/4/2010, 4:13 PM
Which file?? The VMS Rendered output??

I think there is more to the problem then that... VMS is using a TON of memory during Rendering AVCHD in and out....far more than Nero 9 does....and Nero 9 works with 24 MBit / sec files. VMS does not - crashes every time. VMS can't output higher than 14 MBit reliably either. So for me its not useable.

With Nero 9 - Just have to use LPCM audio and not AC-3 audio...apparently it has a bug with AC-3. Turn off smart render as well. It works.

Rob
LR2003 wrote on 1/4/2010, 4:37 PM
Yes, the m2ts file from VMS.

Notice that there are 2 issues with VMS & AVCHD

1. The crashing issue on 64bit systems. The fix described on this forum where you change the memory flags in the DLLs worked for me. VMS is now very stable during rendering for me.

2. The issues where audio and video will get out of sync on playback. The fix that seems to work for me is running the file through the tsMuzeR program. I think that I used the defaults for everything except for selecting M2TS muxing on the output section. This is a very quick process.
frogpb wrote on 1/13/2010, 8:17 PM
i'm on windows7 64bit and tried using CFF Explorer to change the memory flags, but when i click save, it won't let me overwrite the file. do you have any advice on what i should do? thanks LR2003