In the same situation here and yes it sucks and it is probably very illegal, much the same as the printer ink situation.
The generic battery works fine in all Sony cameras that we've tried from my D8 to our PD150s but it doesn't work in the Z1 or FX1, go figure. Well yes I did figure, Sony worked out how the clones had bypassed their interlocks and rejigged the code in the Z1.
Now Sony are going to feed you some BS story about safety and it's total BS because Sony Li-Ion batteries are probably the most dangerous on the market. We've had several meltdown and one bust into flame just sitting there, not on a camera, not on charge, just sitting there.
How anyone is allowed to transport these on an aircraft is beyond me. I find it ironic when the TSA guys want to check that my camera batteries really are camera batteries and not some nasty device, if only they knew.
Bob.

I heard one theory that Sony had modified their batteries to copy protect them. This can't be true because I have a couple of old Sony batteries that work fine.

Can you guys think of any possible way that a real Sony battery would trigger the copy protection? I have an email that needs answering where the guy still says it's a real Sony.

Is it possible that the people who make the SONY batteries make the Generic ones too? G

Quite possible!
Trick with the Sony batteries is they're 3 terminal devices, I assume the 3rd terminal is for some form of serial comms between a microprocessor and the camera, hence the title 'InfoLithium'. If the camera doesn't get the right message back from the battery it knowns it's not kosher. Just imagine how much this adds to the cost of the battery.
In all fairness this isn't just Sony being silly, although they seem to have honed it into an art form. As I understand it many years ago there was an industry standard battery, the NP1. Still in use today on many bits of kit. Didn't matter whose camera you bought, you could power it from a NP1, made life simple for everyone.
But today every camera manufacturer has their own battery, or even several different batteries for different sized cameras and I can say it's a royal PIA. Nearly had ourselves convinced to buy a DVX100 as there's still a bit of demand for them and they're pretty cheap. And then we thought, oh no, we need more chargers and batteries and space to put them etc. Same goes for Canon and JVC.
This is like Ford making their cars so only their tyres fitted them, just a plain nuts idea that works against everyone, manufacturers loose economies of scale, retailers have to spend more on inventory, all of which gets passed on to you and I which makes what we do more expensive which means less of it gets done and therefore less cameras and VCRs and copies of Vegas and FCP get sold.
As the old saying goes 'Does it add value or does it add cost' is so applicable to this lunacy.
Bob.

Well... it’s obviously not illegal. Every razor company in the world makes blades that only fit their razor. As was mentioned, every printer company tries to copy protect their ink cartridges. Yes, it’s outrageous behavior. Wouldn’t it be better if they just offered blades, ink and batteries at competitive prices?

I bought my extra Sony NP-F970 battery from B&H for $104.95. They also have an Impact brand battery for $79. I’m sure B&H wouldn’t be selling these as replacements for the NP-F970 if they didn’t work. (and even if it doesn’t work, B&H will give you your money back. They sell the Z1 and can test it there) After you purchase a $5,000 camera is seems silly to haggle over a hundred dollar battery so I bought a genuine Sony. You mileage (and logic) may vary. ;-)

~jr

Well the razor analogy has one problem: other batteries fit my HVR-A1 fine. They just don't work. Also, they initially work. It's after discharge and recharge that I start getting the error message and shutdown. If Sony batteries were somehow better, I'd use them even without the copy protection. I have yet to use a non-Sony tape in this camera and there is no protection there. In the battery case there is no quality difference however. It's a copy protection issue clean and simple.

As far as the morality/legallity issues go, I don't believe it is either moral or legal. Sony batteries are a LOT more expensive and there no reason I should have to buy them. I feel a better analogy is the one where migrant farm workers are sold food by their employers at an inflated price because their employers know they don't have access to regular stores.

Other analogies might be a car that would only run on one exessively high priced brand of gas. A camera that could only use one brand of film. An engine that would only accept one brand of motor oil, etc.

Also there is the issue of warning. Sony should publish that they have copy protection that means that their cameras will not work with the majority of available batteries. Had I know that generic batteries wouldn't work, I wouldn't have bought them. Had I know that "genuine Sony" batteries from China wouldn't work, I wouldn't have bought them either. I have five batteries sitting around, none of which work.

Me buying non-Sony batteries is not an intellectual theft issue. Copy protection has no business whatsoever being used in this fashion.

Well , they went one step further with this one.
3 years ago for example, laptop generic batteries would work... but void your warranty.

They're being reeeeaaally creative nowadays at Sony. And I'm slowly feeling more and more tingling on my neck...

i'm sure it is legal, but highly immoral & even more immoral there's no warning. It might just be certain camera's. Could be a firmware thing. Or a bug. Have you tried calling sony? Tell them you have REAL sony batteries that don't work. I know in media & some hardware, it's all region encoded. maybe the batteries are too. Maybe your camera will only regonize batteries from a certain region.

if sony is depending on the money from "authentic" sony batteries for profit maybe we shouldn't be buying stuff from them anymore. that could be a sign of bigger problems (you boss doesn't start docking you for being 30 seconds late unless there's bigger problems, right?)

Sony is so far ahead of the competition in the camera game, I'll deal with problems like copy protection.

I doubt that it is a "zone" thing because my old Sony batteries work and nobody was that sophisticated a few years ago. I haven't called Sony on this issue because I know (from calling about other problems) that I'll go through endless calling boxes, only to leave a message that will never be returned. I would like to know the parameters of this copy protection though. I'd rather not buy any more batteries that won't work. This warningless copy protection really sucks!

Well, that pretty well cinches it for me. Based on this alone, I would never buy a Sony camera.

I think the lesson here is sometimes you just to buy kosher or from an authorized reseller who knows what works right. I wasted a bundle of time and money on clone ink cartridges and here we are again wasting time venting. I know this is a pain in our "free un-protectionist market economy" but it is the high profits made from ink sales that makes the printers themselves almost free and I guess it goes the same way with batteries. I get my Sony batteries for the FX1from B&H who sell the "Power2000 FOR SONY" - never a problem. With expensive equipment I just don't think you should be buying from unknown and trusted sources or e-bay.

Mike S

I use generic ink only with my "protected" Epson printer. If I didn't have this option I would be using a printer that did. The generic ink is 1/4 the price for exactly (as far as my eyes can see) the same quality.

that's the attitude that keeps them doing what they're going. You belive they are the best, they belive they have you by the balls. And they do. :)

lession here: don't buy a ton of stuff you don't know 100% will work. Nothing is stopping anyone from spending $100 once to see if it works. if it doesn't consider it a lesson learned. it's a risk & sometimes you loose. If it does work then you found a way to save lots of $$$.

again, call sony. if they ignore you, make SURE there is no warning. if there isn't, maybe take them to court for the hundreds in wasted batteries.

Right on (Jay) .
I'd say I've been thinking the same for a while now. I'm not into HD stuff but when I get there, I'll start with the simple word of order to check out what other brands have to offer and if it's compatible with Vegas at that time. If not, I'll compare systems in a whole... and possibly switch to something less "monocentric" with the hope that not all brands embark into this boat until there.
But Sony has proved to be very bright at being a loner so far throughout years, and still working hard at digging that hole that separates them from others.
Even for V7' I'd suggest them to seriously check out the owners suggestions and consider "opening up", since it's a problem that constantly comes up on different levels.

Owwwright. It's rainy outside, all the latest news concerning Sony hadn't been brilliant lately and I'm just coming out of a festival (the Resfest / www.resfest.com ) involving tens of clips and shorts with specs under each title indicating everybody used FCP to do their thing in the "official program" (or, I'd say, 98% of the people) , and an "official magazine" in which there was one ad page (with boring, flat "attitude", if I may) for... Movie Studio + DVD.
In a fest where Michel Gondry and Stéphane Sednaoui did live appearances, answering questions, presenting their work, etc...
Guess what, Panasonic took all the opportunities this time to hang out with the, well, the next generation (let's put it this way). Goodbye "sonystyle"...

Holy, do they miss the boat sometimes.

'Til then, I'm sticking to V5d and my PD-100 which is a system that seems to work so far and is not too expensive for my (humble) needs. Next will probably be another story.
Let's just call it a long, slow fade-out.

The Z1 manual does say the camcorder operates only with InfoLITHIUM battery packs.

Although the practice is hard to swallow, in terms of the overall purchase the batteries aren't that expensive. I bought three F970s, they last for six hours each and hopefully I'm set for a few years.

Quite some time ago Dell and HP lost a case in which they had installed software in their ink cartridges that they claimed was "Copyrighted" and therefore no one could make legitimate aftermarket cartridges. You HAD to buy genuine Dell and HP cartridges. The aftermarket maker was a criminal and you were in effect an accessory to the copyright theft.

Thank GOODness they lost that nonsense claim. Now, for Sony!

Better check to make sure those Sony batteries don't install a rootkit on your camera! LOL!

Hey, just trying to lighten things up. I sincerely hate all of these petty actions by Sony. Due to all their crap lately, I plan to change my purchasing behavior in the future to avoid Sony products as long as the competition has something as good, or better. That might be a cell phone, alarm clock, boom box, TV, whatever.

I think there probably are warnings.

I'd have to check to be 100% sure, but I seem to remember that almost all cameras, camcorders, whatever, always say to use only genuine ( insert manufacturer name here ) batteries and chargers. That is basically a warning.

Having said that I used Sony and Power 2000 batteries ( on cheaper camcorders ), and never had any problems. I wouldn't even try to use some unknown generic battery on a camera like pd150, because crap can ( and does ) happen.

Sony has always been into protecting themselves. Hence, why they tend to lag behind the competion a lot.

Take Apple v Sony. Apple weren't the first people to release a MP3 player. They were the first to release a stylish player with fully integrated software. Sony have tried to compete but are losing. Now, Sony release the PSP which is excellent for video. Who is the first company to release an integrated solution - Apple of course!! They integrated video into iTunes.Who had a three/four year head start?? The best thing Sony has released so the PSP so far is PSP Media Manager, but with no integration.

You see, Sony is all about protecting themselves through DRM, etc. Tthey would rather lose out on the $bn that everybody else is into.

I started moving away from Sony in the past, which is why I was upset that they bought Sonic Foundry. So far, Sony seems to have left them alone. Who knows if that will change, and I certainly don't tust Sony anymore!!!!!!!!!!!

kind of like not wanting your store to be vulnerable to shoplifters so you put in to place protections that keep customers out as well!

I have no personal knowledge of the particulars of Sony's design, but I know quite a lot about batteries, electronics, and inkjet printers and cartridges.

1. The current/voltage/resistance behavior of a battery varies quite significantly between different designs even if they use the same chemistry - thus a non-oem battery might work, might not. If it doesn't you'll likely get the message that the sony camera's generating.

2. Multiterminal batteries may be used so that various things can be sensed to provide optimal charging (and LIFETIME) of the battery. Rechargable batteries are a marginal technology at best and the designers ARE trying to maximize the performance you get. Yes it is possible to have some intelligence in the battery pack to sense what battery is being used. Yes it is also possible to damage your camera if a truly wrong battery technology is used. Yes it is possible to damage your printer by using off brand ink. I've posted on this topic elsewhere in this forum with more details on how that can happen.

3. Manufacturers of both battery operated devices and printers/inkjet cartridges have more than just crass profit gouging in mind when they try to get you to use oem consumables - we have to guarantee performance of our products. We can't do that if you use an unknown replacement. Many million$ are spent developing inks and media so as to maximize the performance of the system for many different attributes.

4. Do you have any idea how many BILLION$ have been spent on R&D so you can buy a printer for $79 that you'd be burnt at the stake for having 50 years ago?

5. If enough people buy refills (and are happy with the image quality and durability, mess, hassle etc) then the prices of the printers will rise from $79 back to $1000 as they were 15 years ago. Manufacturers have to make a profit. It's either ink or hardware, you'll choose by your behavior.

6. I am totally disgusted by Sony's rootkits on CDs and won't buy any of their hardware products ever again. I'm kinda locked into the media software though....but if vega/soundforge etc. start showing up with rootkits then I'll bite the bullet and change that too.

I'd agree with you to some extent on the printer ink issue as it becomes in effect a user pays system. Becuase of the discounting done on the cost of the printer I can afford to buy the very best inkjet, even though I may not have a high throughput for it. Those that do are subsidising my purchase through their use of ink. Except of course most of the high throughput users don't buy ink cartridges period, they feed the printer from bottles of ink at around 10% of the cost of ink in cartridges. Yes the inks are different, even the colours are different but you do get new profiles to correct for this.

But as for batteries, sorry that's mostly bunk. A battery has to met fairly loose design criterion, what it connects to is where variations in voltage and over current protection come into play. The only exception to this is Li-Ion where cells need protection to avoid being fully discharged. We've run many Sony cameras off our own designed power systems for years, never had an issue which is more than I can say for Sony designed and built batteries.
Charging batteries is a whole different ball game though, particularly Li-Ion.
Bob.