Sony HDR-HC1 HDV ? HD on a Consumer Budget?

farss wrote on 5/29/2005, 6:47 AM

You're a few weeks late. And the silence from Canon is still deafening. Sony also have a new pro HDV camera, single CMOS chip, looks interesting as it's a lot lighter than the Z1.
I'm not in that much of a hurry to buy a HDV camera myself as the only reason I have to buy my own is for holiday vids and I don't think HDV is the right choice for that kind of video but what I do want is a reasonable sized not too expensive 16:9 camera so these smaller HDV cameras could be the answer, I'll just ignore the HDV bit.
Bob.

Quryous wrote on 5/29/2005, 9:00 AM

You should also check out those touch screens on the consumer Sony models. Personally I am waiting until someone comes out with an affordable HD unit with 3.5" LCD and without the dreadful touch screens, no matter HOW long it takes.

filmy wrote on 5/29/2005, 10:16 PM

>>>but what I do want is a reasonable sized not too expensive 16:9 camera<<<

If you want a 3 CCD one look at the Pani PV-GS400 ( I think it is NV400 for PAL). And there is a new line of cheap Cannon 1 chippers that all have real/true 16:9 as well.

farss wrote on 5/30/2005, 1:44 AM

The Panny NV-GS400 looks interesting, seems it can record 25p but Panasonic are a little vague on that point.
Bob.

[edit]
Nah, not progressive, just some fudge like on the Sony HDV cameras.

PierreB wrote on 5/30/2005, 6:31 AM

"I don't think HDV is the right choice for that kind of video"

Bob, could you expand... why don't you think so (I'm a holiday video maker anxiously awaiting a low-cost HDV alternative... I thought).

Pierre

filmy wrote on 5/30/2005, 3:25 PM

I would guess that, except for the PAL, everything else is the same. On the "progressive" concept - there is something intersting, but vauge, and that is it has a "progressive photoshoot" which allows you to "record still pictures" at a higher quality. On top of this it also has a "frame moving pictures (frame mode)" that allows for 30 frames a second to be shot as opposed to 30 fields. So this is all sort of explained in the sense that one is only available in card mode and the other is only for video mode. And this goes back to the faux 30p mode - or does it? If you choose the cine gamma (or 'Pro-Cinema' mode on this camera) it goes into "frame" mode, you don't have a choice. My question has been 'Is this the same "frame" mode that you manually set to be able to record 30 individual frame per second?' I am still not clear on this really and I have not done enough testing to see if there is a real change.

The camera does have a lot of very cool features for the price - IMO:

Pro: Color bars
Con: Not SMPTE standard bars and no tone.

Pro: Real 16:9 mode and CCD's, not the fake zoom in and crop the 4:3 CCD's (squeeze) mode that even the DVX100 uses.
Con: Image does not "letterbox" in the viewfinder/monitor like the much cheaper new line of Canon single chippers do in their 16:9' mode.

Pro: Zebra pattern
Con: none yet

Pro: Manual override for the microphone.
Con: Not able to adjust each channel seperate. Too many clicks on the menu to get there. Not able to keep the "meters" on screen and not able to adjust as you go along if need be. (in other words it is still best to get some sort of external audio gear)

Pro: Film like setting (Pro-Cinema)
Cons: Only one option and you have to use it with the "frame" mode.

*but*

Pro: you do have limited adjutablity of image but once you set it that is it - there are not "user assignable" pre-sets on this camera. So you could create your own "look" with the available manual options (Sharpness, Color, Exposure, Contrast) and than shoot in "normal" (interlaced) mode.
Con: Could be an issue if you ever need to "recall" settings. You have to go into the menu and set these each time for each shot you wanted to tweak. If you forget to manually change the settings back you will be shooting everyhting with these settings.

Pro: manual focus
Pro: manual zoom
Pro: manual iris
Pro: manual shutter
Con - they all use the same ring - it is a nice method however because it is the typical "focus ring' around the lens and not some tiny little button hidden somewhere. However another good thing that goes with this part is -

Pro: "AE lock" - so when you do set your iris and shutter you can lock that off. However you have to stay in the "MF" mode to keep your focus - there is no lock for that so if you go into "MZ" for manual zoom it goes to auto focus...with that it is one or the other. (Which, IMO, doesn't matter anyway because the manual zoom is kind of silly in that to use it you have to use the ring and it is controled by how "hard" or "soft" you turn it - want a fast zoom? Twist it hard..which also shakes the entire camera. So, anyhow - uselss for me)

Another tie in to this section is -
Pro: manual white/black balance
Con: like all the above if you move the little switch back into "auto" mode you have to redo each one again. In this case there is only one "auto" mode - full auto. Unless you choose to use individual auto settings - and I know that seems to go agaist what I just said. But here is what I mean - when you go into manual mode you can adjust settings if you want to - but you do not have to - thing is that once you do adjust settings they are "adjusted" for the most part. However you need to be careful because going from "MF" to "MZ" will click one or the other back to auto. Likewise clicking on the "WB" button will cycle through the options. And all these buttons are in line with one another so it would be (is) too easy to hit the wrong button. The exception to all of this is the "AE lock" because once you move the switch into that position even if you hit the "Shutter/Iris" button you won't change those settings. My guess is because of the size of the camera it would be hard to add 3 switchs for each button.

There are other things too but for me these are the main reasons I got the camera - not the "con" part but the "pro" parts, and I fully understood there would be trade offs. And really for a few hundred more I could have gotten a more "pro" camera - however it wouldn't have had the real 16:9 and to get the anamorphic lens would have jacked up the price lots more. And as much as I would like the "real" progressive as near as I can figure/see/read there are only one or two cameras close to the same price that record full/true/real progressive. The DVX100 being one and the XL2 being the other...and both of those are a few thousand more...and at that point we are getting so close to the HDV cameras in price that I figured I would wait until they are all out and see what one best fits my needs.

farss wrote on 5/30/2005, 4:30 PM

If you're seriously into shooting holiday videos then yes HDV is just fine, I'm not of that ilk. I go on holidays to well, have a holiday. Mostly we end up in fairly exotic places and yes on many occasions I'd wished I had a better camera with me and all the kit that goes with that. But what I do have is good enough to remind me of what it was like to be there and I got the footage without destroying the moment. I didn't have to spend any time worrying about my kit either, it's cheap enough so that if it gets damaged or stolen I can just shrug my shoulders and get on with enjoying the holiday. Also it doesn't intimidate people, that can be a big issue in many parts of the world.
I've shot a bit of HDV and I'm totally blown away by it and I've got several hours of footage shot by others I've worked with, it's a huge step forward. But I wouldn't be doing the format justice the way we shoot footage on holidays, the last one I just got the wife to pull the camera out of the bag as we sped down a freeway in the UK , that's not the way to get good HDV footage!

Bob.

PierreB wrote on 5/30/2005, 5:58 PM

Thanks Bob, I understand better now, and I certainly agree that Job1 on a vacation should be... vacationing!

Pierre

Spot|DSE wrote on 5/30/2005, 7:52 PM

You might want to check out these pix posted by Sony:

http://www.sonyshop.c-tec.co.jp/con...e/DSC00003c.JPG
http://www.sonyshop.c-tec.co.jp/con...e/DSC00005c.JPG
http://www.sonyshop.c-tec.co.jp/con...e/DSC00006c.JPG
http://www.sonyshop.c-tec.co.jp/con...e/DSC00008c.JPG

They are compressed, so that doesn't help, and they're just screen grabs, and that doesn't help much either, but they are from the new cam.

filmy wrote on 5/30/2005, 8:49 PM

Or just follow this link: HDR-HC1