I agree with most of the comments. Spyware and preset marketing options are getting worse and worse. Why should we have to run seperate programs just to unclog memory? Junk Mail is getting even more obnoxious.

I downloaded the firefox browser and the thunderbird mail program over the weekend and both seem to work great.

I have been getting an increased amount of spam recently and needed a spam blocker that worked (laptop 450mhz, only 330mb ram). Tried Norton internet security and did not like the results. Took too much memory and does not seem able to properly identify spam. It never did open properly on this computer to allow adjustment of preferences (I suspect too little memory or issues with Windows ME). I also have the junk mail/adult content filters working with every filter word I can think of.

The Thunderbird mail client was easy to install and works wonderfully. It has intercepted a number of the spam mails that outlook missed even before I have customized/added filters in Thunderbird.

Good luck to all.

I've always thought that people should be required to pass a test on basic computer skills before they could operate a computer like they have to before they can drive a car or fly a plane. ;-)

I'm just kidding of course, but its surprising how many people don't really know a thing about how their computer works or the risks of having a always on broadband connecton to the Internet, allowing programs to freely upload/download stuff without asking, etc..

"but its surprising how many people don't really know a thing about how their computer works "

I couldn't agree more with that statement!

Keep in mind that i'm posting this as someone who makes his living keeping other people's computers running for them. I'm a network administrator / systems operator / programmer / webmaster / email administrator. I know a thing or two about how computers work. That being said, i completely disagree that users should be required to "know a thing about how their computer works." They should be competent in the software they need to run. There should be no need for them to know anything about the computer beyond that. A computer is now a commodity and as such the end users should be able to expect that it will simply do the job they want. No user should have to know how to edit the registry or uninstall/deactivate spyware. That's what they have folks like me for.

When you get your drivers' license, are you tested on how to replace the spark plugs, adjust the timing, rebuild the transmission, or even something as simple as check your oil? Absolutely not. If all this knowledge and skill was required then we would have very very few automobiles on the road. People are taught and tested on driving the car safely. If they have needs beyond that then they go to a mechanic. This is not a bad thing. It saves millions of people from having to learn skills that they will rarely need, if ever, and saves them from having to spend the time to fix the problems. They can concentrate on using and enjoying their car. Yes, there are automotive hobbists who do learn more about their car, but that is because they want to, not because they have to in order to drive it.

The same can be said about cell phones, toaster ovens, microwaves, dishwashers, cameras, electric toothbrushes .... etc. Like them, the computer is now a commodity item. It's the responsibility of those in positions like mine to make sure that computers simply work for their users. Users should not have to be bothered with these details.

I agree that it doesn't hurt if people know a LITTLE bit about computers before they use them, but I agree with Chienworks that in today's day and age we can't expect people to all be experts. When the first PCs came out, they were the toys of geeks and hobbyists(no insult intended, as I was/am one myself). They still are but they are also very mainstream today. Children use them. Executives use them. Even the most basic of jobs are now computerized. And among all this we have a very opportunisitic industry taking advantage of all these people. If I call up Sony sales, I don't expect them to sound like a used car salesman. But most people's Internet practices, from the big companies down to the independents, are just like that. Sleazy tricks and traps trying to make the unwary agree to something they don't want. EULAs that go on for pages and can't be understood without a law degree, so noone reads them. God knows what I have agreed to from software publishers in the past year; perhaps one of those fine print clauses claims my first born child or something.

In short, I think the net is full of embarrassing and unprofessional behavior by most of the players, both minor and major. If companies applied a similar sort of behavior in the real world, it would be a PR disaster. But the Internet is too new, too open, and everyone sees it as a chance to get away with things they can't get away with in the more traditional business models. Hopefully someday companies will wake up and take a little pride in the way they do Internet business.

Until then, let the user beware...

-Jayson

According to Spybot Search and Destroy, about 9 out of 10 "cookies" that are left behind to watch my computer are generated by coming to this forum.

Now, "watch" is a bit harsh, because I realize that Sony is probably just watching to see how often I come and what I look at on their forum, but the cookies are there, non-the-less.

I can't actually TELL what Sony is using the cookies for.

I'd suggest offering kids now a days a general "how to" computer class (my local school offers one on HD replacement, OS install, etc), but then they just end up learning MS word & Excel. Which sucks.

But, you've GOT TO have all those programs that "sneak" around like the QT online agent, the Real Player updates, etc. 99% of people don't know jack about computers, AND they complain when something doesn't work (normaly from a lack of an update). So, companies make those monitoring programs. It stops normal people from complaining "how come I can't watch the "Great Movie" trailer."

I've never had a problem with Vegas "spying" on anyhing. It's a stupid checkbox, I've only had it pop up twice EVER since using the software (both times were to tell me of saving money on the V5 upgrade). Also, I've never had Spybot say anything about cookies from this site. Your security settings may be to low (i'm using the mozilla defaults).

Interesting thread here. I agree and I don't. I do not like the fact that many programs now require you to have internet access in order to use them. I also dislike that many of them secretly send info to their servers. For example last week I installed a new program to try out. No big deal. However I opened up a little program I have had for maybe 3 years now - it is a freeware program as well. After about 1 minute I get this pop up about not having a license and I need to get one, and the program closes. It confuses me so I check to see what else is running. Nothing that would cause this message. I open the program again and after about a minute I get the pop up again - this time I pay closer attention. It says something about "FX Rack Pro" or something like that, a program I do not have installed and *not* the program I am using. So to double check I open the program again and look at the "about" splash screen. As I thought the name is not "Fx Rack Pro" or even close nor is it any program that *needs* a license. However it was made by a company who now, I guess, makes this "Fx Rack Pro" program. And chances are, like Sony with the old SOFO stuff, it is based on the same software. So - we now have older, discontinured, software being renamed and resold (and, yes, updated and maybe even redesigned) but thanks to new internet 'spying' the old licensed, or free, software becomes useless. In this case there was *no* indication that my info (or the programs) was being sent out to anyone. Also considering the fact that this is not even the correct software that is being spied upon it is sort of like - well, I guess one could say a violation of my personal info.

So I can agree that that sort of thing is sneaky and useless. But for new software I could understand it as long as the user is informed about it and *has the option* to do it or not. Quick Time is a perfect example. You can do a web download/install or you can download the full package. You can also go into the settings once it is installed and choose to *not* automaticly look for updates. And at no time has Apple ever sent me a pop up saying thay my version of "Quicktime for Windows 1" does not have a license. (This is somewhat of a joke because I have the Beatles "A Hard Days Night" film from when it first came out on a "Multimedia CD using Quicktime" - being touted as the future of what films and computers would be able to do. I can not use it anymore because the installer will not look for any verison of Quick Time over what was out at that time, which I think was verion1 or 2. Thusly I get errors about "Quick Time is not installed. Please install Quick Time for Windows verison 1")

Flip flopping to the other side again - yeah I can set up a firewall, or just turn on the XP firewall, and lock out all outgoing traffic as well as inbound traffic. That would sort of solve the porblem, however it opens up another one. Software that clearly refuses to run until you have connected to it's home server somewhere for validation or updating, sort of like Vegas 5. I have heard the reasons for this but having a company tell me that it is ok to come into my computer would be like the police telling me that because I live in a house off a public street anyone who I have purchased something from has the right to come into my house unannounced and try to update it themselves. "Hey what are you doing to my television? And how the hell did you get in here?" "Well you purchased the television from us and we need to update the circut board. That will be $735.45 please for the update. By the way, your wife looked really hot when in the shower. Oh yeah, I had to use the bathroom while I was here I noticed your sink was a bit outdated so I called the distributor and they should be coming here any second to update that problem."

As for the whole issue of "people should know how to use a computer", again I agree and also disagree. That same discussion should be used for Vegas - hey I have been doing this for a long time but I don't think that poeple who use Vegas should know how to edit. Yes It would be great for every single person in the universe to *not* buy any NLE because that is "what people like me do" and if they want editing done they should, anbd will, hire the "pros". But that is not the reality. The dumbing down of software has come from the market demand for it. Look at Studio 9 - poart of it are too simple in my eyes. I said that when it was first released - autoedit??? Choose a style and it will auto cut your video?!?!?!? Same goes for any software that has "autoupdate" or that searches your system for "installed components" and updates them even if you don't want them to be updated. People don't want to think about it - they just want to turn on the computer and have it up to date and running. Go to sleep and wake up and *poof* - you have an entirely new OS because it updated and installed overnight.

I think the much better issue to adress is "when is it too much?" When does the software become so "lowest common denominator" that all users become the same? At what point does "big brother" become so much a part of our lives that it isn't really "our" lives anymore but the companies who "run" our computers - and thusly our day to day lives?

I like the hands on feel. I like to edit. I like to install what I want and when I want. I like to push buttons and have options. I like the really expensive machine with the flashing lights and the sounds that go "bing".

Good point about driving skills, please explain how come so many get killed by automobiles?
Your example defeats your argument. Within the very limited constraints a basic driving test means we should be competant so long as we don't drive over 50 KPH or in the wet or at night.
Same goes for computer software, sure we can keep the users out of harms way even if they only have a basic skill set. Just only let the PC boot up into Word and disable every other program.

Bob.

What do you like about Firefox?

I use the Avant Browser and I like it. Tabbed browsing, so you can have five windows open, but only one program running in your taskbar.

I heard firefox was good, but I tried for about a half-hour and went back to Avant Browser.

Avant still has its quirks, but generally I can deal with them. Though every time I go washingtonpost.com my browser minimizes.

filmy,
Interesting and complete post. I agree with a lot of what you say. I don't like online registration required to use software. I don't mind auto-updates assuming that is the one and only thing they check and they don't do it too often. But I do think I should have the choice to have auto-update or not.

To be fair, people who use Vegas shouldn't have to know how to edit. They SHOULD be willing to LEARN how to edit. I am a strong opponent of any kind of dumbing down of software, but I'm not against automatic shortcuts. Have a feature to edit my video for me? Sure, why not, AS LONG as I still can, should I choose, exercise the right to edit everything down to the smallest item. I like how Vegas does this: it has pre-set values you can use for stuff, but if you want more control, you can get right down into it no problem. Nothing is dumbed-down, it's just put behind a simpler front to prevent being intimidating to the novice. I think the wide mix of pros and newbies using Vegas(as evidenced by this forum) is a sign of a product very well developed. The newbies use it because they can figure it out and are not scared off. The pros use it because it have all the features they want and a fast workflow to use them in. As a newbie very slowly becoming not-a-newbie, I often find myself starting with pre-sets, then saying, "Well, what if I want this a little different?" So I start digging into the sliders and by the end of the evening I have a much better understanding of how the feature works. I'm not being dumbed-down, I'm being encouraged to learn at my own pace, which I think shows real design genius from SF now Sony.

Not to mention the tremendous community support in this forum... couldn't do it without all the selfless help from the pros around here. Quick thanks to all for the support.

-Jayson

tabbed browsing... :p hate it. I like to ALT-TAB between my pages (I have 4 vegas windows open now). what I hate even more is that Windows XP AUTOMATICLY puts windows of the same program in one place on the task bar (and how do i tell the difference between 4 copies of DOS commands running that way?!?! They all just list command.com as the name!)

I agree one should not have to know how an appliance works to use it I'm an electical/electronic enginer but am now totally fed up constantly having to update and upgrade and check for spyware and all that crap that is eventually going to kill the internet as a useful tool, my editing machine is not on the net I get downloads of anything I need an transfer them via thumb drive I just can't be bothered keeping the big machine tuned after the net has screwed it up. I seem to spend more time tuning apps than using them. And upgrades jeez no wonder bill gates and the like are so rich what a scam. I get a version that works ( don't get me off on that subject) and stick with it do not upgrade for the sake of it unless it's free and will solve a real problem that bothers me.
Soap box off :)

Billyboy:

Next you'll want adults to pass a basic parenting test before having children!

<grin>

Andy

Hmm... not a bad idea either.

I'll explain a little more what I meant in my original comments. I'll use one of my cousins as an example. She's my age, I love her of course, and she's smart, very smart actually, she has two advanced degrees she's a professor, travels the world,but... is a total klutz with computers.

I lost count how many times she's called me, usually in the middle of the night when she's on the other side of the world and all in a panic over some simple thing like she couldn't find a file she renamed or she somehow managed to stick two CD's at once into the same drive and couldn't get them out and things like that.

So I disagree with Kelly's comments. A computer isn't a toaster. With that your bread, waffle or muffin either comes out like you want it or you burn it, no real harm done. With computers its different. People constantly replace hard drives they think "died" that don't have a damn thing wrong with them, they don't have a clue how to change even their screen resolution and simple things like that and they trust putting a good chuck of their work into a computer they don't know how to use and never have "time" to backup. ;-)

the real humor is that we buy the hardware, software and internet connection, and we are not considered clients but as debtors. If Microsoft is successful with registration of copyright usage business model, you'll be paying a monthly fee for all your software and music you use on your computer or media center. Cell phones, Cable tv and commercial software,(few clients, but big apps) have created a business model that will be a future nightmare. BIG BROTHER is around the corner, and its not the government.


AJP

Sometimes it's just about knowing how to use the tools.

re: tabbed browsing... :p hate it. I like to ALT-TAB between my pages

CTRL-TAB works just as good. Actually better since you get the whole name of your window instead of a little icon. (Opera 7 here.)

re: what I hate even more is that Windows XP AUTOMATICLY puts windows of the same program in one place on the task bar

I hate that too:
Taskbar Properties | Group Similar Taskbar Buttons

Maybe this isn't such a bad idea. If it means I can have Maya, Autocad, AE and Combustion sitting on my PC and only pay when I use it sounds like a wonderful idea to me. It'd sure level the playing field a bit.

Maybe I've missed something here, I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Billyboy:

I know what you mean, but how much of that is learned helplessness? A lot of the time, as long as these types of people have people like you to help them out, they're never going to have to learn to do it themselves.

I had an ex-girlfriend like that. As long as I was there to solve her PC problems, she was fine. No doubt second thing on her agenda after splitting with me was finding a new guy with computer skills!

I'm the original poster of this thread, and just wanted to add/clarify.

I know my PC, inside out. I in fact use half a dozen anti virus tools including the standards, Ad-ware, Spybot, XP firewall, ZoneAlarm, firewall on my router. I've never had a destructive virus, ever and I've been computing since the Commodore 64. Good backup strategy, as well as Drive Image (now using TrueImage) has saved my ass a few times.

As I said, I need to be on the Internet when editing for many reasons, I also put together websites so I need to ftp files and so forth, edit web video, plus test online on a regular basis. It's not practical to use two workstations or plug and unplug my modem.

I was just trying to get across that today, we have a nightmare in our hands and it's only getting worse. Fine, file sharing utilities like Kazaa Media Desktop are well known to incorporate spyware, but it now goes way beyond this. Microsoft, Adobe, Sony -- everyone is doing it and we're letting them. And it's not only spyware, but how the software will do registry tweaks so it auto launches with certain activities, steal file extensions for itself without asking, and layer deep within menus sneaky liitle Internet settings, sending data and ID stuff back to the software maker.

Add spam to all of this and really, its too much. I always feel when I run a program that the software maker thinks it's the only program I run. Well, you kow what, I have 3 DVD authoring programs, 5 MPEG encoders plus Avid, Vegas, Premiere Pro, and so forth and so forth. DO they not understand the frustration we experience in registering, updating, unclicking stupid intrusive features and having to get other software to eliminate their spyware?

My 2 cents again on Firefox. I'd say run and get it, you'll never look back. Avant, MYIE2 their fine, but I think Firefox is really sweet. Not only for tabbed browsing (which everyone seems to have except IE) but for the many extensions that add incredible power to the browser. Any weaknesses Firefox has can be fixed with an extension or two from Mozilla (I have an extension that auto backs up my bookmarks, another one that improves the FireFox bookmark manager, mouse gesture extensions, etc).

BTW, spamihilator (http://www.spamihilator.com) which runs on top of Outlook is awesome at removing spam.



MB

Interesting, that Microsoft's "Monthy Rental" plan is exactly the thing MickySoft stated they wanted to FREE us from back in the days of DOS before Widders.

They promised us that they could free us forever from the tyranny of having to tie into networks that were always undependable and having to wait for other people because the system was overlaoded.

I other words, by using MicroSoft products, you could have your OWN computer with your OWN software and never have to depend on anyone else, ever, again!

HA!

A warning for users of Kazaa, a hack has been develop that permits a remote site to run a file server,(usually a porno file server), using Kazaa as a server interface. I've had to help a few people out of a Fed jam over this issue. They were connected by Comcast cable, thier computers ran for 24 hrs a day on the web. they considered themselves to be sophisticated computer users, (one was a systems programmer for CA, another is a webmaster for a major network). Use Extreme Caution when using free file sharing programs.

AJP