Just a point or two you might wish to consider when asking people who do this for a living to help you save money (cut their own throat, some might say).

Negatives, Internegatives and unrendered footage -- unrendered digital files, are considered "work in progress" by legal definition and belongs to the artist who creates them, not their client... Unless the creator was employed by you in a true master/servant relationship, not as a contractor.

I'm sure you have people experienced with Vegas offering you their services. They'll probably keep copies of their work and even (quite legally) offer to sell it to your rivals if they think they can.

Just be sure your contract is very clear in what you expect. I'd be very surprised to find anyone who edits for a living taking up your offer without giving you a contract to sign that would kill any master/servant relationship you need before you can own their work.

Not intended to start arguments, just pointing out what to expect from a professional.

My firm is not asking anyone to help us "save money", or to "cut their own throat".

We are paying for services, and we will own the work, just as does any other client. We posted here because many Vegas experts are on this forum, who do terrific work.

As you, not intending to start arguments, just pointing out that you have jumped to rather absurd conclusions. Nevertheless, thank you for letting us know what to expect from a professional.

> "My firm is not asking anyone to help us "save money", or to "cut their own throat"."

Barry,

Yes you are so perhaps you misunderstood what Ryadia was saying. Let me offer it to you in a different way:

> "We want to purchase, specifically, the VEG file you create, rather than the final rendered file. We have Vegas Pro 12, are able to render the file, and may desire to update particular elements in the video later."

There are two problems with this statement. Let's take the second one first:

> "We have Vegas Pro 12, are able to render the file, and may desire to update particular elements in the video later."

This probably what sparked the: help us "save money", or to "cut their own throat". comment.

What you are saying is that you don't want to have to pay the creator of this work to make future changes. That is obviously to save you money. I don't know anyone who would agree to this but obviously you've found some candidates who are in dire need of money as to cut themselves out of any future revenue.

> "We want to purchase, specifically, the VEG file you create, rather than the final rendered file.

So you want this professional to just give you their secrets? As a video editor, how I achieve a certain look or composition is the core of what I do. It is the years of experience and knowledge that you are asking someone to simply hand over to you so that you can reverse engineer it and see how it's done and build on it for free. That is the ultimate "throat cutting" is you ask me.

It's like paying a painter to match a color and then asking them what they mixed together to achieve that so you can make more for free. They should say, you pay me more money and I mix you more color. Or paying a mechanic to fix your car and then asking if you can video tape the procedure so that you know how to do so you don't have to pay them the next time. Do you see what you're asking? It sounds like you want to do some fairly complex video effects and then you want how it's done handed over to you.

> "We are paying for services, and we will own the work, just as does any other client. We posted here because many Vegas experts are on this forum, who do terrific work."

Usually you only own the final product (i.e., the final render), not the resources to recreate it. I don't know who has agreed to turn all of their editing knowledge in a project over to you but I can almost guarantee that you are not paying them enough for it. I for one, would never agree to that.

I'm just giving you another perspective because, with all due respect, you are requesting the project file to save you money and cut the editor out of future work. I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way.

Good luck with your production (and I really mean that.. I'm sure someone will do a great job).

~jr

JR,

Thanks for your response, interesting points. However, with that said, while I can see how you might believe I am asking a vendor to help us "save money" and "cut their throat", with respect and friendly disagreement, I utterly, categorically, totally and completely, reject your premise. You are simply dead wrong, on many levels.

Generally, I find it a bit odd when people tell others what they are saying. However, in your case, I partially agree. Yes, you are correct in that I am asking a creator to produce work that meets my needs now, and additionally, so that I can make future changes. However, you are wrong and shortsighted when you jump to the conclusion that I am merely doing it to save money, or that the only editors willing to take my job must be in dire need of money. In fact, I would submit that what I am offering is a great deal, but how would you know, you are resistant to the idea, your sensibilities shutting down any consideration, even what appears to me in your post to be a twinge of sanctimony.

Consider, what are "potential" future changes worth? Figure it out, put in in the bid. How about this, pick up the phone and say, "Barry, job sounds interesting but I have a couple of issues, my ‘secrets’ and ‘future changes’, so I will need to include that in the price. " Fair enough. I am not an editor, but I suppose you have averages of how many updates you typically perform for your clients, so it should be easy enough to include that in your bid, or maybe not. Your work is terrific. I might have paid that price, but you (and obviously at least one other) will never know because you rejected my idea out of hand.

My company is not in the business of making videos, so I am not even sure where I would sell your secrets, but if that was a problem, I am sure acceptable accommodations could be made, because smart people can usually resolve dilemmas, or if not, don’t bid. For goodness sakes, stop making all those great tutorials, I think I’ve watched every one of your tutorials, great stuff by the way, but you’re giving away your secrets, showing people how to reverse engineer your effects, or are you holding back on us John? (joking) I might be wrong, but seems Sony in conjunction with other experts has, for sale, Vegas tutorials. In my request for an expert, I am being up front, indicating that I would like to purchase, i.e., am willing to pay for it, again, pay for it, someone like you, to help me create a veg file. To me, it is downright laughable to think that because I have a veg file, created from someone’s experience and expertise, that somehow, that translates into them losing one red cent, or their future vocation as a video creator ruined, their secrets revealed. John, again, with all due respect, you are missing the big picture, your tactical judgment is overpowering your strategic judgment.

Back in my college days, I didn't get a lot out of Calculus, but one thing I remember is that when searching for the answer, it sometimes helps to look at the extremes, often the answer lies somewhere in the middle. If I was offering one million dollars for a veg file, it is probable that you would more likely consider my proposition, and if I offered one dollar, it is probable you would decline. Acceptable terms probably lie somewhere in the middle, but you will never know because of your resistance, I would categorize it as fear of consideration. I know there is pride in work. I get that. But, I am not asking for the formula for Coke, something easily stolen, reproduced. The idea that being paid to help someone create a veg file will bare you naked to the world, and cost you your integrity as a professional, is pure poppycock. I have a company, which is not in the business of creating videos, but needs a video, and also desires the veg file in order to save time in the future. I know exactly what I am asking. If you believe this is selling your secrets, and ripping you off for future updates, then don't bid, but to make a blanket statement that anyone inquiring about my request is in dire need of money is untrue, insulting, almost pathetic. You are a video expert, but in this situation, you don’t know what you are talking about, total balderdash.

By the way, I owned (recently sold) a chain of six automotive repair shops, a venture I had for over twenty years. In your example, if a customer had asked to video tape a procedure for later use, I would have been all over it. Of course, like any businessman, I would have charged for it, exactly what I expect a video editor to do to me, charge me for it. Yes, I want it handed over, but not for free, as you insinuated. These procedures aren’t secret. I have an idea and a script. Every single effect is posted in multiple places, this forum, Creative Cow, You Tube, etc. Holy smokes, how about that Handbrake, good, better, best video, amazing, wow, talk about giving away your secrets. However, I do not have the time to devote to Vegas, and will therefore never acquire the expertise as someone who does this for a living, I freely admit that I might simply be incapable no matter how much effort I put into Vegas, therefore I gladly will pay someone who does.

Maybe I should simply have posted that I need some advice, or asked for help in creating a veg file. Maybe I should have posted that I have a file, but it is not turning out the way I hoped, that my skills are not enough, reached out for advice, and tossed in that I am willing to pay for it. Maybe your reaction would be different, of course, maybe not. I bet you a dollar I could have posted my file online, described my dilemma, and ten generous experts from this forum would have helped, for free! I see it here often. I have had so many questions answered I almost feel guilty. In fact, I have already paid several people for their advice, because I am not willing to play twenty questions, wear out my welcome, and so I gladly have paid for their incredible experience and knowhow. In fact, I might do it again soon for some green screen advice, although I guarantee I could post a segment online and again, ten experts would help me with settings, for free. I am actually thrilled to pay people for their experience, and I take issue with your opinion of my motives. You don’t know me from the man in the moon. If you want people to ooh and ah over finished products, as they scratch their heads wondering how you did that, secrets tucked away in your back pocket, then you probably should never consider a proposition like mine. But consider, jumping to conclusions as you did, making over-generalization without due consideration, is quite common, but almost always a mistake. Good choices made without consideration, are just as likely from serendipity, as good judgment.

John, no doubt, you take issue. I do too. You consider it stealing secrets, reverse engineering, being a cheap skate, etc., obviously something entirely nefarious. My guess is that my reply will not cause you to have a change of heart. However, you should, because you’re wrong. You’re not wrong because of the way you feel. After all, your feelings are your feelings. You’re wrong because you jumped to bogus conclusions without due consideration, classic close-mindedness, and then plastered your opinion of my motivations.

Who knows, maybe some enterprising Vegas expert could go into business selling veg files, or helping others create veg files. Of course, you’ll have to get over the notion that you’re selling your secrets. Actually, if this project goes the way we hope, we will be purchasing a veg file about every two weeks, not as detailed as this first video, but quality paid work nonetheless. If this goes really well, keeping our fingers crossed, we will hire someone full time, and then guess what, we own ALL work produced for us.

I hope you consider my points, as I did yours. Thank you for wishing me luck on my project. I know that you mean it, and I appreciate it.

Barry Hull

That’s right Barry you can’t just walk into Area 51 and sus out the UFO’s . for heaven’s sake next thing we will have guys from Cuba flying around in reverse engineered coconut fiber discs. Veg files are highly classified. you may well have the appropriate black attire but not the security clearance!

But I am willing to help you out if I can because that’s what professional people do.

Barry,

OK maybe I had you all wrong. I've certainly been wrong in the past and will be wrong in the future for sure. It sounded to me like you had an in-house editor that wasn't up to the task so you were willing to pay a better editor to do the hard work and then you could use your own editor to make future tweaks cutting out the better editor. Maybe that wasn't your intent. You're right, I didn't ask and probably should have.

You're also right that I give away a lot of "secrets" in my tutorials. It's not about the "secrets" as much as not employing the creator of the work for future edits. But that's your choice and you have every right to ask for what you believe to be the best for your business. I also appreciate your kind words about my work and you're right, you could have come here asking for help and most people, including myself, would probably have helped you for free. I guess it's not so much what you ask for but how you ask for it. It just struck me the wrong way but probably shouldn't have now that you explained it. Thanks for clarifying.

~jr

I am not going to add a lot more to this conversation, because I believe that JohnnyRoy has more than eloquently stated a case and an equally well-stated amendment. There are some serious concerns about this method of seeking work from professionals.

I don' t think for a minute that there is any real concern about reverse engineering a project .veg file - Good Grief, unless I take the time to absolutely document everything on the timeline for which you need third-party tools to do that kind of thing- I can not even uncover my own methods for creating a .veg file that stays entirely with me. BUT a deliverable should be the work of an editor who has put heart and soul with tons of creativity into the piece that is acquired.

A .veg file is like giving an auto mechanic a partially assembled engine for a race car, he could treat the deliverable in several ways.
Run it as is, or more likely tamper with it and hop it up for more performance, or sadly committ some error and blow it to bits.

I will say that this is becoming more and more a norm in this industry and it's a bit freightening to those of us who know the full value of what we're doing.

That said, in circumstances such as this where someone wants to buy out my project and media, I just make sure I'm charging accordingly to the point where I feel satisfied that if they buy at that price I'm getting enough money to forgo future revenue from that particular project.

Now depending on the work, I might be more or less inclined to offer this assistance, however I'm certainly happy to take a look if I can be compensated accordingly. Perhaps I'm working with my feet a bit in both camps, however the OP was not out of line in his request IMO based on the current environment that this industry is in. Mind you I don't know how much he was hiring at so it may be that he's entirely out of line with his pay scale :P

Dave

In many ways this employment situation is an example of what is common practice in the software industry.

As an employee or independent software contractor, my client (or employer) is paying me to develop source code for a computer program. The output of that compiled source code is a functional program that can be duplicated and sold in quantity. But that isn't what the client (or employer) is paying for. They want the source code.

It's true that once I hand over that material, and I'm paid for my work, the new owner of my intellectual property has the right to go elsewhere if he wants any future changes or enhancement made to it. But in his best interests, who else could he find that's better suited to the task. So, from personal experience as a Sr. software design engineer, I never worried about this. I just made sure that I was generously compensated up front, and made sure the client understood what my fees would be for any future work.

Of course, I kept copies of the software source code. Not only as an archival copy to use when and if the client returned, but also as a record of the algorithms, coding techniques, and new technology I learned or became familiar with in developing the clients source code. The code is his, the ideas behind the code are mine to reference and use in future projects.

Yes, Gary, but this is symptomatic of a programmer's life. We as programmers have learned to deal with it and we do charge accordingly. In some level this has somewhat undone the software industry over time -such that software development is a difficult process and YET.... yet the end product has often had to be nearly given away after many company buyouts of previous code owners.

Actually that I think about, this is really not a comparison of strategy , in my opinion, because although you could argue that software code is art it is for the most part science that traverses as value from one owner to the other.

In the artistic realm of media forms such as video and audio production, it is the art that prevails as the sell point, and the science or mechanics of it do not play that much in to the value of the author's creation.

In my experience all business arrangements fall into two categories. In one, both parties agree to fair exchange. In the other, one or both sides are looking for an edge. Even if a client is willing to pay up-front for any "potential" changes that might be made in the future to offset an editor's losses, how can fair exchange by either party be achieved with nebulous assumptions?

Changes to an existing project could be done much more quickly by an experienced editor, so immediacy shouldn't be an issue in such a decision. And file delivery has never been faster or easier. Editors (at least most Vegas editors) are not getting rich off their talent, they're making a living and offering services for a fair price. I will maintain my integrity (and my .veg files).

Barry, I feel certain from your posts that you are a businessman of integrity as well. An editor is as much a specialist as an accountant or an HR manager. Your time, money and product, throughout all future revisions will be best served by hiring a trained specialist, whether an in-house editor or a freelancer. Our tools are simply software and a computer that anyone can purchase. We make a living at this through talent for creating aesthetic visual work that delivers a message. And we've learned which keys to press at the right moment. Just that part takes a while.

"Actually that I think about, this is really not a comparison of strategy , in my opinion, because although you could argue that software code is art it is for the most part science that traverses as value from one owner to the other."

That's an interesting thought. Software has long been argued to be both Art and Science. That's why software consumers prefer one program over another, even though they may perform the same job. The science part can be thought of as what's accomplished by the program. The Art is how the user appreciates the way it's accomplished. Simply stated Form and Function.

I guess in the software world you can say it's the science that creates the Art. So it's the science that's under contract. And in the world of media production it's the Art that's the deliverable, even though science was behind it.

Damn. Now I'm just as confused as when I started thinking about this topic!

Ding Ding!! A record for my longest post ever! Please be patient; I think my thoughts and experience have some merit in this dialogue.

Let’s call a spade a spade. We all know that a cheap prosumer camcorders (starting with DV or even Betacam and SVHS), a desktop PC, a stable operating system, and affordable yet powerful software such as Vegas, Premiere, FCP, After Effects, et al, virtually eliminated the barrier to entry into the professional videography market. Same thing happened to the printing industry in the late 80’s with desktop publishing, to large-scale pro recording studios, and the larger audio industry in the 90’s. Video industry in this last decade, and next is the Motion Picture industry. Software, computers, and camera gear are just too plentiful and too cheap. And my kid is taking videography classes in the 5th grade!!!

Because of this, I for one have had to make constant adjustments to my business model to stay ahead of this “democratization” of technology. My clients are now outsourcing Mo-Graph work to India and China; they are purchasing their own cameras and software for the easier, low-hanging jobs. Anything that can be templated and mass-produced on an assembly-line is the new normal. Think Digital Juice. Everyone says, “Hey, I have a computer and Joe has a video camera, why pay that video guy 80 bucks an hour when we can take it in-house and do it FOR FREE?”

And that is indeed a compelling argument for the small to one-off mom-and-pop clients, and the medium-size companies that have seen their own media budgets shrink, because this decade has become the New Normal- be satisfied with less. Clients and business owners aren’t dumb. They’re just trying to survive like the rest of us.

In 1997 I could charge 175.00/hr as an independent media production specialist for corporate work. Then a decade later, it was 125.00. Now I’m lucky to get 85.00, and that’s before haggling. Every joker and his brother with a website, a hacked copy of Vegas and a handycam is now a production company.
I know this has turned into a speech and I apologize for the rambling monologue, but now we come to my point.

Okay, Barry, as far as buying the .veg file and not the finished media goes, I know where you are coming from, and it’s not totally out of line, if both sides know what is expected, and the price is right. You want a template, one that can be modified and re-used without having to go back to the well every time. You’re a businessman and that’s the most efficient and affordable approach. But there has to be a very clear understanding here; and I’ll qualify as best I can.

I had a client a few years back that I had worked with for a whole year, on a big CD project- total soup-to-nuts music project in Vegas 8, 22 songs, and, I don’t know, 72 tracks or more per song, automation, major FX, so it was hundreds of hours of studio work. A real labor of love. And as the work got closer to finish, the more adept my client was at watching and understanding what I was doing with Vegas. He was an electrical engineer by trade as well as a fine musician, so he was a very smart, observant, and savvy client by nature.

Well, after all those hours had been spent polishing this still incomplete project, he told me he was moving to another city, that he wanted to buy a copy of Vegas, and would I be willing to sell him the current .veg files so he could finish the project himself. He knew what he was asking, and so did I. And because he was a loyal client, and had paid so much already, I gave him the .veg files for that reason. He had spent enough, and we were close enough to finishing, and He had paid his fees, and paid his dues.

Then we parted company happily, he finished his project, and it sounded great. Because he had watched me pulling out all my tricks many a late night, scrubbing, and shifting, and sweetening, and eq’ing, and making his band sound better than it should have. So, when he bought a copy of Vegas for himself? He was just buying a tool. A hammer is just a hammer. The hand that wields it is the “Talent” part.

Now, what did the .veg files I gave him represent? They were essentially the “Blueprints.” And if the Vegas producer you hire is half as good as some of those members who post on this Forum, I’ll guarantee you that the .veg file they deliver to you might as well have been scribbled in Sanskrit. Because again, “Tools” are not “Talent.” And just having the blueprints doesn’t mean you can build the house (or even repair it).

So, Barry, if it was me you were hiring, I’d do it for you- If you agreed to pay the price of two finished versions of the video (at full rate), plus training time on how to manipulate the .veg file. Because I know that if I didn’t do that, I’d lose the job entirely to somebody cheaper and more desperate, and you know that. It’s a new world out there, and the slave's gotta eat too.

Welcome to the new world, my friends. And as always, you all have my continued gratitude and respect for the invaluable technical knowledge, advice, patience and friendship offered daily to this forum. It is a privilege to be counted among this community of artists.

Darby Powell
Tallahassee FL

JR,

Thank you, good points, understood.

At the risk of another tongue-lashing, I will wander back into the fray.

videoITguy – you are right, a complicated veg file, to me, is a work of art. Others will fare better, but trying to make sense of all that code, I may as well try to decipher the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics by Ptah-Hotep, Vizier to the great Pharaoh Djedkare Isesi, way back around 2500 B.C. Great stuff, when someone else translates it for me. The “updates” I was referring to in my original request for work are likely no more than text changes, in case I update some testimonials, maybe a graphic or two. To think that I have the expertise, or ever will have the expertise to make full scale veg changes, just dreaming, I simply am not willing to devote the time, but I do thoroughly enjoy staring at the mesmerizing work of others on my screen.

Gary James, I agree with your notion of part art and part science. In my work, I call it the intrinsic (human factor) and extrinsic (technical knowhow). You need both to be successful. The extrinsic resides in training, relatively straightforward and easier for most, while the intrinsic is a bit trickier, concepts such as aesthetics and beauty.

Atom12, you make some good points. Nevertheless, something for you to consider, nothing more than a general observation based on my work within values and judgments, something I have a relatively large amount of experience (unlike Vegas Pro). But again, nothing more than food for thought. When individuals discuss integrity, and make declarations of things they will not do because of integrity, and those things they declare they will not do fall outside of the bounds of the usual untoward deeds such as lying, cheating, stealing, etc., they often are placing an inordinate degree of emphasis on their intrinsic judgment, the human factor. In my humble opinion, you would not diminish your integrity by selling a veg file, yet by declaring that you will never sell a veg file, you might miss an opportunity, and let something potentially wonderful drift by because you were not open to the possibilities. Of course, based on business considerations, you may decide not to sell a veg file, but make sure you are open-minded to new and shifting paradigms that repeatedly come your way. But hey, just a thought, you might tell me I’m full of crap. I can accept that.

Darby, maybe I misread, but your post had a rather pessimistic tone to it, sounds like the video world is a difficult place to earn a living. The most valuable commodity I have is my time (this post is way too long) and at least for me, can’t speak to your other clients, if we worked together well and your work was top notch, no chance in hell I would walk away from that for someone “cheaper and more desperate”. Maybe you don’t give yourself enough credit. Just sayin…

Barry Hull

I'm moderately experienced editor (but still have a lot to learn), and I'd have no issue at all giving a client my project file. Computer software changes too fast for that project file to be useful for longer than a year anyways.... plus they'd need a lot of third party software to even use most of my projects. I'm hardly afraid of losing work by giving a project file away.

That being said, I've NEVER had a client ask for the project file. They just want the final render.

I think the 'slitting my own throat' comments are a tad grandiose.

Interesting discussion, valid points all around.

Working in-house for a small, fast-moving design and manufacturing company I can see that having the .veg file would allow small changes to be made quickly. Maybe you just need to edit a title, for example, or replace a product photo with a newer one because the unit has changed cosmetically - happens all the time, and you don't want to be at the mercy of a vendor's schedule when you're trying to get a product out the door.

Besides, if I did give my .veg file away to a less experienced editor I'd offset the loss with the 900 tech support number I'd set up because, as we all know, there are multiple ways to die in Vegas. Ripple Edit... Lock keyframes to events... Unintended keyframe insertion in the Pan/Crop dialog.....

Besides, if I did give my .veg file away to a less experienced editor I'd offset the loss with the 900 tech support number I'd set up because, as we all know, there are multiple ways to die in Vegas.

Excellent point, Guy!

I also work in the software industry, and it's the same thing as the client wanting the source code along with the app. Just charge them for additional support, as needed. Not uncommon.

And to your point about experience, I concur. A hammer's just a hunk of steel in your hand if you don't know how to fix the roof.

This is somewhat relevant, but only somewhat.

Legend has it that Pablo Picasso was sketching in the park when a bold woman approached him.

“It’s you — Picasso, the great artist! Oh, you must sketch my portrait! I insist.”

So Picasso agreed to sketch her. After studying her for a moment, he used a single pencil stroke to create her portrait. He handed the women his work of art.

“It’s perfect!” she gushed. “You managed to capture my essence with one stroke, in one moment. Thank you! How much do I owe you?”

“Five thousand dollars,” the artist replied.

“B-b-but, what?” the woman sputtered. “How could you want so much money for this picture? It only took you a second to draw it!”

To which Picasso responded, “Madame, it took me my entire life.”

I'm moderately experienced editor (but still have a lot to learn), and I'd have no issue at all giving a client my project file. Computer software changes too fast for that project file to be useful for longer than a year anyways.... plus they'd need a lot of third party software to even use most of my projects. I'm hardly afraid of losing work by giving a project file away. - VanLazarus


+1 to everything written