Sound for Movie Project - Advice Wanted

Jessariah67 wrote on 8/29/2004, 4:14 PM
Hey All,

Venturing out from the documentaries this winter and shooting a feature-length script. We're trying to be smart about it -- 4 characters; one location; 2 cameras (video, not film).

My big thing with this is the audio. I think audio makes or breaks a lot of indie movies, and I really don't want to spend 3 months looping a 90 page screenplay. The set is interior, so we can control things up to a certain point, but if anybody has been down this road and has some "wish-I'd-knowns" they could toss at me -- in terms of types of mics, setups, etc. -- I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

Kevin

Comments

apit34356 wrote on 8/29/2004, 7:43 PM
Go to Spot's website, check his book also. DMN forum is a good source information too, but I do not like DMN how they drive my Netscape 7.1 c#@$!
Spot|DSE wrote on 8/29/2004, 8:00 PM
If you're dealing with mostly dialog, and will post all the room sounds/fx/design, then just worry about good mics and placement. Each person doing dialog should either:
a; have a wireless lav
b; have a good boom operator and angle for boom operator. Boom operator MUST know what they're doing.

Use a mic designed for interiors. The AT 4033 or 4060 is good for this, DON'T use a shotgun indoors. Rode NT series are pretty good for this too.
apit34356 wrote on 8/29/2004, 9:14 PM
Jessariah, if your project has any budget, contract someone like Spot, I would ask Spot myself, to consult and organize the equipment , video and sound, for your location. equipment placement is soo critical. technical anaylsis of the shoot, can save you a lot of time and money. You don't want to spent 90 days correcting something that could have been done with 10 minutes of good advice. Avoid as much as possiible the approach, "Don't worry, post can fix it!",
the old saying that time is money and poor work is just poor work is still true.
Jessariah67 wrote on 8/29/2004, 9:18 PM
Spot--

Studio cardoids on a boom instead of shotguns? God, I've got a lot to learn, don't I...? Is it the LACK of directional signal that's beneficial with that?

I didn't think lavs would do the trick, but would certainly be the easiest solution. We will be adding all incidental ambiance in post. I'll look into the mics you recommend. Right now, I only have a Senheiser ME66, but am obviously planning to make a purchase for this project. Trick is, getting good audio on two targets at once. The lavs may be the trick.

Again, as a documentary director, I'm used to "dealing with" what I get, as opposed to thinking it out ahead of time. I've got a great audio guy for cleanup, but I want the raw to be as good as possible.

Thanks for the input.

K
Jessariah67 wrote on 8/29/2004, 9:28 PM
Apit,

I'd love to bring Spot into this, but I don't have the dough for anybody with that kind of expertise. Maybe someday, but I can't swing it this time around...

K
Spot|DSE wrote on 8/30/2004, 6:07 AM
Apit has a good point. One place you can *usually* find a good audio guy for production, is a local recording studio. Forget about video focus for a moment. Studio cats are pretty easy to work with in most situations, and maybe you could have a little time with a guy for the cost of lunch.
For the guy in post to be able to create solid sound, you need to hand him good sound. Virtually never use a shotgun indoors. A large format diaphragm mic is almost always a better choice. Maybe a local studio could rent you something?
Jessariah67 wrote on 8/30/2004, 6:52 AM
Thanks for the pointers, guys. This was exactly what I was hoping for.

K
SonyEPM wrote on 8/30/2004, 7:25 AM
Make sure you have several minutes of clean room tone and that your air-handling system (AC or heater) is OFF during the shoot. I just fought a problem with AC noise for days and days because the soundperson didn't pay attention to the background noise- took 3500 edits and about 40 hours of work to clean it all up.
ghost072 wrote on 8/30/2004, 11:17 AM
Why are shotguns so poor for indoors? I am about to shoot a project indoors and was all set to use a shotgun, until I saw this comment. I have a Cascade M20, which is technically a "condenser pressure gradient microphone," according to the vendor. Would this be more appropriate for indoor shooting?
scottshackrock wrote on 8/30/2004, 1:26 PM
This thread rules...here's another question though.

I have a cheap handheld miniDV video camera. I love making movies, but of course any mic put into the camera or the "on-camera" mic is terrible.
I also run/engineer a local DIY recording studio - so I have plenty of recording equipment/mics available to me.

However, my questions is this: Can I record audio onto another medium - say, tape (and transfer it to the computer) or minidisc, or something else (any ideas?)...and then try to sync it with my video later? or does this create big problems/pain in the butt?

the reason is because - I can't plug a mic that need phantom power into my crappy camcorder 1/8" in. ha! but I would LOVE to have decent audio. LOVE LOVE LOVE! haha.

Thanks guys.
Catwell wrote on 8/30/2004, 4:58 PM
scottshackrock, If you have 1/8 mini phone mic connector on your camera, buy yourself an adapter box for XLR input. Some of these even have phantom power now. You can of course always add a phantom power adapter between the mic and the XLR converter. These boxes have a transformer to convert from balanced to unbalanced and they block the power the camera provides for electret mics from your good mics. Venders are Beachtek www.beachtek.com, Sign Video www.signvideo.com and Studio 1 productions www.studio1productions.com. Take a look at these devices. With them you can use your quality mics directly into the camera.
Spot|DSE wrote on 8/30/2004, 5:28 PM
Shotguns will pick up room reflections from the source as well as the direct sound from the source with unbalanced frequencies, based on how the shotgun works. Some exceptionally short shotguns work well for interiors, but it's a general rule to never use shotguns.
Ghost, try your shotgun in the room first, then try a cheap, 5.00 mic taped to a test subject. You'll like the cheap mic better, almost guaranteed.
mjroddy wrote on 8/30/2004, 5:59 PM
I've had real good luck with my ME66 in a small (10ftx18ft) room that was a work shop with surrounding wood cupboards. Actually sounded as good - or better than my Lav Mics. Guess I just got very lucky.
Jessariah67 wrote on 8/30/2004, 6:08 PM
Scottshackrock - You can record to any medium you want to, just make sure you slate it with a clapper to sync the audio to video.

SonyEPM - I'm assuming the clean room tone is for NR?

Spot - you were dead-on as usual. I talked to my audio guy, and he hissed when I mentioned shotguns interior. He actually said one of the best wide cardoids right now is a $160 Behringer. He just finished a metal album for a Japanese label and cut all the vocals on one and left the $1K+ mics in the cases.

K
farss wrote on 8/30/2004, 8:50 PM
Apart from thhe clean room tone, could I chip in and suggest a sample of the room acoustics. I'm told all you need is the impulse from the clapper to feed into acoustic mirror, maybe just get everyone to hold VERY still and quiet so you get the full room decay.
As to recording into the camera, no matter how good the mic your still at the mercy of the cameras preamps. You could use soemthing like the Fostex FR-2 or a laptop with an exteral box like the M-Audio Firewire 410 and record straight into Vegas.

Bob.
scottshackrock wrote on 8/30/2004, 10:59 PM
Catwell....thank you a milion, I didn't know things like this existed...

hmm...i can't find out if these things have phantom power though..i'll keep looking thanks!
musicvid10 wrote on 8/30/2004, 11:33 PM
For your musical underscoring, check this guy out. I have heard and seen his work and recommend him.
Media Dynamics
FuTz wrote on 8/31/2004, 4:07 AM
If you "kill" the fridge just leave the truck keys inside it (eggs parking lot is my preffered spot) so you don't forget to reset it before leaving... ; )

Shotguns indoors: they're not bad, it's just you have to get a *good* audioman to drive the unit. since it's directional, it's not as easy as with a cardioid mic. And, again, it's a question of choice; some audiomen think it sounds more natural with a cardioid mic when, for example, you have a conversation at the table areound the turkey. But if your audioman is good and follows the shot, he must be able to give you the right "sound perspective" according to what's on the cam.
Oh, that reminds me; you got two cams... go cardioid and use lavaliers on your lead/main characters to reproduce this perspective at editing after..!
ghost072 wrote on 8/31/2004, 7:10 AM
Wow, I had somehow I had missed this and, since I don't own any lavs and hadn't done any location sound with my vocal mike, it had not become apparent. Thanks for the tip, Spot!
Spot|DSE wrote on 8/31/2004, 7:21 AM
>>>since it's directional, it's not as easy as with a cardioid mic. And, again, it's a question of choice; some audiomen think it sounds more natural with a cardioid mic when, for example, you have a conversation at the table areound the turkey.<<<

You lost me here. A cardiod mike IS directional. It's a heart shaped pickup pattern with various elongations, shotguns are cardiod or hyper/super/ultra cardiods. (Heart shaped pattern, ergo "Cardiod.")
I think what you meant was an Omni directional.
Long shotguns for interiors are a known quantity and should virtually never be used on interiors. I doubt you'll find anyone in any capacity at a 'professional' level using shotguns indoors. Short shotguns, ranging as large as the new AT 897 from Audio Technica *might* work in some longer, less reflective room situations, but again, a large format diaphragm works well, or a high quality, lo noise condenser will work great.
there is a forum on just this subject alone at the DVinfo.net forums, called "Now Hear This." Mics are pretty well the only subject talked about.

musicvid10 wrote on 8/31/2004, 9:18 AM
"I doubt you'll find anyone in any capacity at a 'professional' level using shotguns indoors."

I agree 95% with this. There are instances on large theatrical stages where we use shotguns to isolate particular scenes or small ensembles. Even then we use them sparingly and don't go sticking them up all over the place. They are essentially a tradeoff between ideal miking and the sight limitations of high prosceniums.

In typical soundstage applications like you describe I could see little use for them, and Spot pointed out reasons for this I hadn't thought of.

About 20-25 years ago, shotguns were all the rage and everyone including movie and TV studios were using them for everything. Take a listen to some of those old reruns to see why they are a bad idea in confined spaces. The most noticeable problems are unwanted reflections and unnatural sounding phase shifts.
Jessariah67 wrote on 8/31/2004, 9:30 AM
muiscvid,

Thanks for the scoring tip, but we do all our music & incidental in-house.
musicvid10 wrote on 8/31/2004, 9:50 AM
"I just fought a problem with AC noise for days and days because the soundperson didn't pay attention to the background noise..."

Yep, it's much easier to deal with these things on location than in post, If you can't eliminate ambient noise at the source you can try to notch it or carefully apply phase cancelling techniques. Of course, it's a rule that on your only available shooting day there will be a helicopter circling overhead .....
Coursedesign wrote on 8/31/2004, 12:44 PM
Sanken CS-3e is about the only shotgun mike that can be used indoors. It has 3 microphone capsules and this makes it possible to get amazing side rejection down to very low frequencies (where other shotguns have no directionality), and it doesn't change the tone when you change the mike angle up to 30-40 degrees or so. It also sounds better than any other shotgun I have ever heard.

This mike saved my ass when I had an indoor shoot that was affected by outside noise penetrating a closed window. I just angled the mike and the noise was gone, the dialogue was not affected at all.

I also use the Rode NT series when appropriate, these really sound good with a good micpre.

With all of that, you'll still make your life easier if you can use lavs. The AT lavs that Spot recommended are very nice, and Sanken COS-11s are just plain wonderful but cost a bit more money. The COS-11 uses a horizontal diaphragm, odd (as usual with Sanken!) but it sounds exceptionally pleasing. It also comes with great accessories for concealment.

The M-Audio FW410 has phantom power, very decent sound for the price, good software mixer control and two "OK" head phone amps (anybody know of any "good" headphone amps?). I bought mine at Spot's recommendation and use it a lot.

It will have to do until I can afford JL Cooper's field mixer :O)