Are you using loops individually or combined? You're within your usage rights to use a single loop with video, but if you use more than one loop together, that makes a "song" or "music bed" that is your creation. Example: Look at the songs done on AP's 8 Packs. They're © The Artist, not Sony. So, the release really needs to come from you. If you hired someone to play guitar on a track, the company wouldn't want a release from the guitarist. Loops are the same way - you've paid for the performance, and what you create with it is yours to sell or give away, etc. The only drawback to loops is that 10,000 other people have the same loop thay they can use in their stuff.

Thanks all - I also would like Sony to pop in and say something on the record because in the long run it is going to hold more weight.

To answer questions - the film is sort of a mish mash. The Director went though a rough scene assembly and used SmartSound to "score" tracks. I got a DV dump of this material. But before I ever looked at this I was going through and editing the film, locking it in. One day the producer tells me he has hired someone to "score the film" and I sort of went "oh...news to me, thanks for telling me". Then I get the end credits with a long ass list of music credits - nothing of which I had so I ask the producer "Where is this music?" and the producer goes "Oh it is the music the director sent you". To shorten this all - they never "hired" anyone to "score" the film, they used royalty free SmartSound music to "score" and somehow came up with, and credited, each and every person who did the "original" tracks - so the credits all read "Title of Music. Composed by blah blah..." I know in loop land (Well SoFo/Sony loop land anyway) this is a big no-no. It would be like saying "Composed by Dougless Spotted Eagle, Rudy Sarzo, Mick Fleetwood" and so on. On top of this the music the director had sent me was based on rough scene assemblies a year old and most of the scenes were either cut out or cut way shorter...so really there are a bunch of bogus music credits in the film.

So enter the "empty spaces" (as in "What shall we use to fill all the empty spaces...") - I used SmartSound for some (and no there is no credit for the stuff I did with SmartSound), FreePlay (yes, credited), Some tracks from a few CD's by an artist I know (and who allowed it to be used and has credit) and some loops from Sony as well as some short little stingers from some Sound Effects CD's (not credited). So the direct answer to one question asked - a few times it is nothing but the loop and they want a "signed release form" for that. And other times they want the "composed" sections - which I may have used 3 loops in plus used some of the stingers on top of that - to also have a release. So we go back to what I said - "You are no going to get any signed release from me because..." I already sent them the EULA for the loops but they don't care about that. My main issue is this - Say I take a loop from Rudy Sarzo's Cd and plop it under a scene. Now I can't use his name but I certianly would not feel right signing a release saying it was my "composition" just to satisfy some IP lawyer who is being overly anal...although I can understand why he is being anal.

So - again, Sony legal dept out there? This is of intrest to any one here who might run into this issue. Is there some sort of Sony Loop sync license that spells this out sans all the EULA stuff?

If I'm reading what you're saying correctly, I'd be very careful with the FreePlay material. It isn't free. The 'free' bit only covers a very narrow area, it doesn't cover cinema release and it doesn't cover anything outside of the USA as far as I know.
Bob.

I also would like Sony to pop in and say something on the record...

I'm not Sony but here's the text from Customer Service Answer ID 565. Hope it helps to settle things.

Mike


Question
Loops for ACID copyright information.

Answer
I notice in ACID's track properties that all loops produced by Sony Pictures Digital are copyrighted. I know I read this in the license agreement, but I still need to know the following:
I create and resell soundtracks for multimedia projects, and I intend to create more music using the ACID Loop library. Am I free to sell my music/soundtracks using Sony Pictures Digital loops?

The short answer is "yes." We encourage you to use Sony Pictures Digital Loops For ACID to assist you in creating your music. Our loops are royalty-free. You can use as many loops in a song as you like, then publish and sell it.
However, we forbid the sale of reproduced or repackaged individual loops from our loop libraries.

> So - again, Sony legal dept out there?

I wouldn’t expect to get a legal response from a user supported forum. If you want an answer from Sony legal, you should have your lawyer call their lawyer.

> I used SmartSounds for some (and no there is no credit for the stuff i did with SmartSounds)

So how is dropping in a single Rudy Sarzo loop different that using SmartSound? It’s NOT! If they are OK with using SmartSound without someone signing a release then they should be OK with using ACID loops without someone signing a release.

If they don’t believe you, get the Lawyer over to the computer, go into your C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\SmartSound Software Inc\Sound Files directory and drag and drop one of the SDS files into the timeline. Surprise, it’s just a big royalty free wave file. Now drop an ACID loop onto the timeline. Well would you look at that... its just a big royalty free wave file. Same thing! They are both royalty free wave files will no need for any credits when used.

> I'd be very careful with the FreePlay material. It isn't free.

You got that right! I agree that FreePlay music is another thing entirely. I tried to use them once and I contacted them just to be sure I was interpreting the “freeness” on their web site correctly and I was told that it was NOT free and their fees were more than I could afford to pay for the project I was doing. Instead, (you guessed it) I used ACID loops to make music in the same style as what I wanted to use from FreePlay and the results were all mine and royalty free.

If you plan to use FreePlay music, I would contact them and double check that your usage of their music is free. You may be surprised to find that it isn’t. If your lawyers are worried about anything, they should be worried about FreePlay.

~jr

Which still doesn't answer the issue, one loop isn't a 'song', is it?
So dropping just one loop as an FX into a soundtrack would seem not to be covered by that.
I know this is splitting hairs but we are dealing with IP here. It's one thing to create a new entity from lots of loops, you've made creative decisions etc. But one loop contains none of your own work so...
Bob.

> one loop isn't a 'song', is it?

You obviously have never heard Rap music. ;-)

One loop or a hundred loops it makes no difference they are ALL royalty free. I did a wedding intro once that was only one loop played over and over. It fit the mood. That was my song.

~jr

You can take an unmodified loop, add it to a video track, render that as a project and it's perfectly legal.
You CANNOT take an unmodified loop and sell it BY ITSELF.
You can take loop A, add loop B to it and sell that as a song, and it's legal.

Mario

Edit: When talking about loops, I'm referring to Sony loop libraries.

The more I think I am being clear the more issues come up. :)

1> *I* know using the loops are fine. *you* may know that as well. These are not the issues. By example I told the, more or less, timeline of this all. The differance between the SmartSound stuff and the loop stuff is that whatever SmartSounds piece the director used he also wrote down each and every piece's credit - so each and every piece of music (from him) is in the credits, even if it isn't in the film. They (The production company) also have SmartSounds Cd's and they can see all the needed info. How they present this to the IP lawyer I dunno - but the questions are not about SmartSounds anyway.

2> Farss is correct in saying the issue is not the combination of loops, but rather the use of a few "raw" (if you will) loops. I did not "compose" these, I did not play on these...I did nothing to these. Yet they are asking me to sign a sync license for these. The Sony EULA is not working for them.

3> Freeplay - been over this many times. They have changed now, however years ago they worded and allowed things in a different way. Burn the music onto a CD, sell it, use it, compile it - whatever. It would be like SmartSounds suddenly going that way, or even the Sony loops - suddenly they change their business model and everyone here goes "hey you can't use that stuff anymore because..." By example, the several year old Music Bakery CD(s) I have is still valid even if all that music is sold over to Windham Hill for release as a consumer CD. I do not suddenly have to go to Windham, Hill and re-negotate a License Fee. The FreePlay agreement I have with the material I use is from 4 - 5 years (or more?) ago. The sync license is very clear, and is worldwide - in part -

FreePlay Music, Inc.'s musical compositions and recordings may be broadcast and/or copied for the purpose of being included in any programming or advertising being produced for transmission over any medium (including radio, television, satellite, wireless or internet media) worldwide. And it goes on about sync license is Free, use on "for sale" items as well as private and non-proft, is Free and again mentions worldwide thusly: You're free to include FreePlay music in programming or advertising for distribution anywhere in the world.

So those who have jumped onto the FreePlay bandwagon recently are facing new rules and new fees.

4> Now I did not metion this loop issue in reguards to anything "royalty Free" being an issue. FreePlay stuff is not RoyaltyFree by the way. I am not sure even if the SmartSounds stuff is because each credit has "BMI" on it which would open it up for BMI collecting royalties based off of the cue sheets....I would have to look into that to be 100% sure. RoyaltyFree is not the same as a Sync License and the IP lawyer is more concerned with the Sync License right now. Royalties would be coming from the distributor, not the production company, anyway. And for the record the old FreePlay agreement says this: FreePlay Music, Inc. reserves the right to collect license fees for public performances of these musical compositions and recordings, and authorizes ASCAP, BMI, SESAC and SoundExchange (and their international affiliates) to collect those license fees on its behalf.

> I did nothing to these. Yet they are asking me to sign a sync license for these. The Sony EULA is not working for them.

Are you saying that if you cut two loops together you wouldn’t have a problem because it would be your composition but because you used one loop alone you have a problem? That’s silly. It is your composition, even if it is just one loop. The Sony EULA doesn’t put a minimum limit on the loops you can use. You just can’t resell the loop as a loop library. As long as the purpose of the loop is to provide music, it is a perfectly legal use. This is not about whether “creatively” you feel this is your composition. It’s about “legally” whether this is your composition. You select the loop from thousands of possible loops to fit perfectly with the video. It is your composition.

Maybe its time to consult with your lawyer. I would just sign the sync license because I don’t see the problem. (but I’m also not a lawyer)

~jr

RE: MyST and JohnnyRoy

>>> You can take an unmodified loop, add it to a video track, render that as a project and it's perfectly legal.<<<

Yes, I (we here) all get this. However the main question that no one from Sony has yet answered is the legality of taking an unmodified loop, adding it to a video track, render the project, have the post production supervisor sign a sync license agreement for the unmodified loop. (And I really didn't expect this to come up - in all my years doing this I have never had any lawyer ask for a signed released form for anything of this ilk. I am kind of suprised I am not getting asked for signed release forms on the sound effects that came from Sound Effects librarys)

>>>It is your composition, even if it is just one loop.<<<

This is where I would fully disagree. As Spot is one of the people on here who is involved with loops this question is aimed right at him, but you can also play along. So say I take a loop that was played/created by Spot....unaltered. I place this unaltered loop under a scene - it is only Spots loop. Thus far we are fine by all accounts. But now I am asked for a sync License for this music. So I now put a credit in the film that I composed this bit of music and I also sign a Sync Lincense for it. Hell maybe I even use only this loop as a solo flute bed for the main title and have all publicity say that I composed the main title theme. Now does Spot have any legal recourse in this? Does Sony/SoFo? After all the EULA clearly says I can not use Spots name in any way shape of form so I can't legally say Spot composed this flute piece. JohnnyRoy and others here say there is no issue with me saying I composed it and the EULA does say I am allowed to use this loop however I want as long as I do not sell it as is unaltered on, say, a sountrack.

So lets stop the debate part of this thread and just get an answer - one from Spot and one from someone at Sony maybe clearing up the EULA or directing all Sony loop users to some form that covers this.

I wouldn't worry about signing a release, so long as you've got a log sheet of what loop libes you used, and can point to them if asked. Frankly, I've never been asked to sign one of these for anyone, Disney, HBO, PBS, nada. I'm only asked in my reps and warranties to warrant that it's all legal, free of encumbrance, etc.
Sony's only restriction is that you don't repackage the loops and sell as a loop package. If you use one loop for a cue, you're still legal. I think the point is that you use the loop in some manner unique from how it is packaged and delivered.
So, my advice is to sign your own reps and warranties statement/affidavit that says that you assure that none of the music is copyrighted to any party other than yourself. (or specify that it's a work for hire, however you arranged that with the producers of the film)

Can you possibly write "Music ARRANGED By Filmy."
Would that not be legal/appropriate then?

Mario

No.
that doesn't specify anything, and further, arrangements could still consist of copyrighted works.
If I arrange "Michelle" by the Beatles, it's still their song, but my arrangement, and there are still royalties due for sync, performance, mechanicals.
ACID loops are in a totally different class.

Ok, got that Spot, but can I say - having used Sony Loops in ACID5 to create a Grazie Masterpiece! - Music Arranged By Grazie? And can I then Copyright that arrangement? Could I feasibly consider getting royalties from this/my "arrangement"? Would I win a lawsuit if somebody "used" my arrangement?

TIA,

Grazie

That's a COMPLETELY different question, and irrelevant to Filmy's, but the answer would be yes, you can put arranged by, and of course copyright, and of course sue and likely prevail if anyone uses your composition. You didn't "arrange" the music, you composed it, but if you want to call yourself an arranger, I guess that's OK. Kinda like calling a doctor a nurse, but maybe that's what you prefer.

Almost ANYTIME someone uses your work, trademark, name, patent without permission, you can sue and prevail.

Spot, thank you. Oh! How does that make me a composer? I would have thought I was arranging Loops? Seesh .. so much to learn.

Grazie

The "official" term for this used to be "sample-posing" but no one uses it any longer. You are creating new works based on other works, but you're technically not arranging, because it's a group of elements from various performances. However, it could be argued in either direction. But, you ARE creating a new work, therefore it's a composition, not an arrangement of an existing work.

Oh, I get it. If I was to take "Michelle" and IF I had the writing/musical talent, I could write and change key and arrange it for violins/tubas/piano BUT it would still be, undeniably, "Michelle"!

Grazie

I went to the producer with the Errors and Omissions concept and he said that is fine. And on top of it I guess they are being over anal becuase LionsGate is putting it out...so hey...when it comes out people will see a film that was edited and mixed in Vegas...and says so in the end credits.