"Squirreliness" in GUI behavior makes me want to shoot the screen

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 1:02 PM

G-r-r-rrrrrr (and for non English speakers, "squirrel-y" means jumps around like a squirrel)

Click on key frame, (just certain ones, at no predictable time)
and BOOM! jump to the beginning of project, (2-d track position open) Grrrr......

OR -- if opened, the Pan/crop window event, jump to the beginning of that event, Grrrr.....

OR -- in trimmer, if I want to have the in/out segment highlighted (and there for, a real cut, not just a proposed cut)
jump to the beginning - Grrrr....

OR -- same on the main timeline, if I've marked out a segment and I want it to turn blue, and I make a simple clik, BOOM! jump to the beginning of project Grrrr.....

OR when I add a track, or delete a track. and I get a vertical jump, (this one probably due to my Mackie control being active, and it defaults to some sort of middle position vertically if the project has a bunch of tracks, but there should be some sort of 'don't do that' switch) Grrrr....

The one possible explanation (but still not acceptable, at all)
In the Pan/Crop window - open on footage that is time stretched on the time line, and so, some Keyframe points added are not, per se, on actual frame beginning, (I'm guessing) but somewhat shifted to "between frames" and if clicked on, jump to the beginning of the event start. Weird and obnoxious.

I'm using a HP z420 (Fast Zeon, 6 Core, solid machine) Workstation, though this behavior is NOT hardware related, AFAICT, as this has been around, and never gets adressed, in fact, it has gotten worse..... (I started with Vegas 4, that is a LONG TIME guys - a LONG time to get this part right, but for some strange reason -- maybe because you don't actually use Vegas in a certain way. i.e., lots of compositing? who knows? -- YOU DON'T)

@gary-rebholz , this frustrates the crap out of me, I am about to turn from a true fan into a "f this s**t" "I'm outta here" crank --- because the one STRENGTH of your product over the others is the time line WYSIWYG easy access compositing, and this just shoots that baby in the foot, AFAIAC, and NEED NOT BE -- Gary, this need NOT BE..... but you, in your otherwise genius mind, can't seem to wrap your head around the GREATNESS you've created and give THAT PART zErO, absolutely NO love. Oh, yeah, PIP window is decent, but not for everything, sometimes PAN CROP is the bomb, but it, and the GUI timeline/ trimmer behavior needs some TLC about now, don't you agree??

Comments

Marco. wrote on 9/19/2018, 2:15 PM

Could you show a screenrecording of these issues? It seems like I can't repro any of these. Clicking a keyframe, opening Pan/Crop, highlighting regions in trimmer or timeline (though it works differently between timeline and trimmer using the mouse, using Shift+Q works same and that's the method I always use for both trimmer and timeline) – none of these processes makes my timeline cursor jump to the beginning. Or did I misunderstand?
 

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 3:29 PM

Sure, thanks for asking!!

Add track jump:

Pan Crop Jump:

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 3:31 PM

Timeline selection (for a cut) Jump

Trimmer Jump:

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 3:36 PM

Track Motion Keyframe jump:

Kinvermark wrote on 9/19/2018, 3:40 PM

Any improvement if you close the project media window?

Marco. wrote on 9/19/2018, 3:41 PM

To the jump to track # 1 when you add a new track using Ctrl+Shift+Q:

Isn't this what we want to happen? If I add a new track that way, what would be my next step? Usually adding media to that new track. So I think it's supporting behaviour if Vegas Pro then focuses onto the new track.

But of course I do not always want my new track to be added as track # 1 on the very top. In this case I click onto one of the existing track headers to select that track and choose to add a new track via the right-click menu. Now the new track will be added above the track I selected before.

What I still miss though is a way to add a video track below the one selected.

Marco. wrote on 9/19/2018, 3:51 PM

To the timeline and trimmer jumps: Try to use Shift+Q instead.

Marco. wrote on 9/19/2018, 3:59 PM

To the keyframe jumps in Pan/Crop and Track Motion:

I'm not sure what I see in the Pan/Crop video. At a first sight it seems like to be correct (if I watch the cursor position and the timecode).

I see your issue in the Track Motion window but am not yet able to repro. Does this always happen there or are there additional things around to be set-up to have this happen?

 

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 4:11 PM

In the pan crop example, it is jumping to the beginning of the event I'm editing in that window. I do it twice, just to reinforce what is going on and to show it is regular, though only certain keyframes. Same with Track Motion, only certain keyframes, and you don't really know which until you clik, like a land mine, boom....and if you are doing careful, keyframe to keyframe motion matching with another track, for instance, this irregular BOOM will friggn drive you up the friggn wall. This is not new stuff, as it is irregular, I have put up with it when it occurred over the years, but now it just seems another level worse.

If I use the keyframe select buttons in the lower part of the Pan/crop edit window, it is better, but that can be a PITA.

 

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 4:14 PM

To the jump to track # 1 when you add a new track using Ctrl+Shift+Q:

Isn't this what we want to happen? If I add a new track that way, what would be my next step? Usually adding media to that new track. So I think it's supporting behaviour if Vegas Pro then focuses onto the new track.

But of course I do not always want my new track to be added as track # 1 on the very top. In this case I click onto one of the existing track headers to select that track and choose to add a new track via the right-click menu. Now the new track will be added above the track I selected before.

What I still miss though is a way to add a video track below the one selected.

Yes, I can see that, but this is not the only jumping in the timeline that happens, this one is harder for me to really nail down, but I saw that behavior myself in preparing this, but there are other occasions when my Mackie Control seems to be the culprit in determining where the track focus will jump to, but again, this (track add and other track vertical jumps) is the one where I am less on reproducible 'solid ground,' but I will start monitoring this more closely.

 

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 4:17 PM

To the timeline and trimmer jumps: Try to use Shift+Q instead.

OK, that (Sht Q) seems to work. Thanks for that. But still, we should have more predictable behavior, my contention is this is the very reason people gravitate towards Vegas, the fast interactives and if they are jumpy or unpredictable, you undermine that very reason, and it isn't that difficult, some apps are really quit rock solid in that aspect, timeline selection, navigation, etc.

 

 

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 4:19 PM

Any improvement if you close the project media window?

I don't know, I will be giving that a look into as I move forward here, thanks for the idea.

Marco. wrote on 9/19/2018, 4:30 PM

Keyframe jumping in Track Motion: Do you have "Quantize to Frames" enabled or disabled in the "Options" menu?

Maybe this is something happening when keyframes for video fx are used between the frames.

Edit:
When I disable "Quantize to Frames" and add keyframes which are between two frames, then again enable "Quantize to Frames" I can repro this issue constantly, even if I use only one keyframe (in between two frames).

Video based keyframes must always be exactly on frames for video. I would never ever disable "Quantize to frames" when editing video! This option is for audio editing only.
Of course it's strange and way off logical if then suddenly the cursor jumps back to zero when trying to click onto such a frame. What I would expect though is that it would not be possible at all to set a video based keyframe somewhere else then exactly onto a frame grid.

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 5:11 PM

Keyframe jumping in Track Motion: Do you have "Quantize to Frames" enabled or disabled in the "Options" menu?

Maybe this is something happening when keyframes for video fx are used between the frames.

Edit:
When I disable "Quantize to Frames" and add keyframes which are between two frames, then again enable "Quantize to Frames" I can repro this issue.

Video based keyframes must always be exactly on frames for video. I would never ever disable "Quantize to frames" when editing video! This option is for audio editing only.
Of course it's strange and way off logical if then suddenly the cursor jumps back to zero when trying to click onto such a frame. What I would expect though is that it would not be possible at all to set a video based keyframe somewhere else then exactly onto a frame grid.

Marco, this makes sense, and again, if someone is a super guru, (I am merely a guru) they would be all over that idea; me - having seen that (frame quantize, thought it was for grid location only) but not really factoring in such a feature into the editing on the timeline, but that is very probably in the ballpark, if not THE culprit on the Trk Motion and Pan/Crop, as I was working, as I mentioned, on time stretched video.

Bottom line, the GUI WYSIWYG is THE reason for Vegas even existing, and really needs a make over to tweak some of the squirreliness and some other ideas....... like, just for one...... cursor remains at the last place where you were editing when you reopen that file....Just makes sense, and I have a ton of those "easy fix" ideas. They should confer with everyday users to get this correct, cause the super guru will be beyond some of these annoyances by way of knowing where the land mines exist, or having a souped up rig that bypasses some of that.

 

gary-rebholz wrote on 9/19/2018, 5:24 PM

...but you, in your otherwise genius mind, can't seem to wrap your head around the GREATNESS you've created...

Ha. Nice.

  • In the timeline, double-clicking the area above the loop region indicator is a shortcut to setting the loop region to the entire project. If you simply want to select the portion under the current loop region, you have to double-click the loop region bar (which is the same result as Marco's Shift+Q suggestion) not the area above it as in your video. So, the result you show in your video is expected behavior and a misunderstanding on your part about what that action does. Unless you are truly using "one simple click" instead of double-clicking. In the video, it looks to me like you must be double-clicking because then the behavior is totally expected. If you are single-clicking, then something weird is indeed happening.
  • Same with your trimmer jump. In the video you are doing the wrong thing if your goal is to highlight the area under the loop region bar. What you are doing is highlighting the entire file, just as it is intended to do. But again, this assumes you are double-clicking instead of single-clicking as you state. If you can clarify the double- vs. single-click issue, that would be very helpful
  • The keyframe jumps are indeed odd. I can't repro that behavior (despite my genius mind!), but maybe it has something to do with Quantize to Frames as Marco has suggested. If we can get a more solid repro on these strange jumps, it would help us tremendously to figure out what's happening
  • Jumping to track 1 when you create a new video track is totally expected behavior, and logical to us geniuses as Marco has explained. Use the right-click method Marco suggests if you want to insert a video track above an existing one

I do listen. Or at least I try to. I'm sorry this has been so frustrating for you, but three of the four issues above are expected behavior, and have been that way since the beginning of VEGAS time--very first version. The goofy keyframe behavior when Quantize to Frames is off is something we will look at a little more closely. If you see it even with QtoF engaged, I'd be interested to hear about it.

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 5:24 PM

To the jump to track # 1 when you add a new track using Ctrl+Shift+Q:

Isn't this what we want to happen?

No, not really, not if I want to, for example, drag something from the track I am focusing on to the new track, not at all. But I get what you are saying, but me, I don't like the timeline GUI jumping all over the place unless I want it to and tell it to... But your observation is well taken ....

Marco. wrote on 9/19/2018, 5:32 PM

I see what you mean. I can only tell how I use to manage those things. In this case I would cut the media of the "old" track (Ctrl+X), create a new track and Vegas Pro would focus the new track, so I could immediately use Ctrl+V to insert the media from the old track.

Marco. wrote on 9/19/2018, 5:34 PM

"If we can get a more solid repro on these strange jumps, it would help us tremendously to figure out what's happening"

I have a contant repro of this issue. I'll setup a demo project and send it later with some additional infos.

Edit:
Report sent.

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 7:10 PM

...but you, in your otherwise genius mind, can't seem to wrap your head around the GREATNESS you've created...

Ha. Nice.

I do listen. Or at least I try to. I'm sorry this has been so frustrating for you, but three of the four issues above are expected behavior, and have been that way since the beginning of VEGAS time--very first version. The goofy keyframe behavior when Quantize to Frames is off is something we will look at a little more closely. If you see it even with QtoF engaged, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Thanks Gary.
I don't think you (I'm projecting, but that's ok, right?) really need the select the whole project as a timeline "too easy" feature (maybe a Cnt ALT SHT CLK would be better there) that would be a "ooops" for too many instances, just my humble opinion.  Like I don't think I ever want to loop the whole project as my projects are builds, not snippets of a minute or less. So, possibly rethink on that.  Thanks for the well considered reply. 

Here is the "Magix" way, from Samplitude, which some GUI routines really could apply here, I'd hope anyway, as you are an audio editor, foundationally, as well (that is the genius part, actually) really slick and fast, the "range" select, (for cutting, single or multiple contiguous events) which is part of the main mouse set of routines, nothing but clicking in the top portion of any timeline event and dragging.... so fast and easy for editing, especially, for Vegas, just chopping out sections on the timeline and deleting. The lower portion of event clicked on gives you event select lasso. Not for cutting just selecting whole events.

zdogg wrote on 9/19/2018, 10:04 PM

Thank you both, Marco and Gary, for jumping in so fast and really taking this seriously. I am forever hopeful that Vegas, whether it is Sonic Foundry, or Sony or now Magix providing the extra help, will rise up and assume it's true dominance. I know it can't be all things to all people. It's sort of a mid level Swiss Army knife that is fast and light on its feet. But that is great, that fills a big need and Vegas has really just begun to realize its potential.

#1 "Quantize to frames" seems to be the issue, I switched off, (that is something I don't even know what it's function is, I am well acquainted with the concept as I am an audio editor, but quantize what to frames, midi info, Audio file start times, metronome times/ beats, what??? So we can probably dispense with further under the hood investigations.

Big THANK YOUs!! I think the new masking tool (though I haven't had the time to really dig into that) shows real promise as does the tracking tool, as does the story board. Scrubbing thumbz as well (though it's not working 100% YET!!)

I do have a great idea, just came to me, literally right this second: (pay me later!!)

In your project video, let about four/six videos run simultaneously, like the multicamera, for fast perusing, and just have a quick marking ability for each so you can watch for something that looks interesting and go back and find that, but so that you don't have to watch each end to end, one at a time. the scrubber is good for that as well, but that is, sorry, a bit "squirrely" still as it is new and stills seems to have some kinks, but my goodness, if that gets perfected, look out - those little things are huge time savers and game changers, and I am glad your priorities are sound here, though everyone, me included, has their own special wish list.

I am 1000 percent convinced that some well thought out - well executed tweeks to the GUI interface interactivity - which is already pretty good, i.e., more rock solid predicable without the jumps and with a faster cut and select ability, w/better key command interfacing, like I showed with the Samplitude example above, would really rock this program, and make Resolve and others an "also ran." The reason for Samplitude?? both programs share an object based editor, and that rocks for both, but Samp you can navigate easier between objects, cut pieces and sections out easier (thinking compositing) - and that is their range tool, which is built into the regular mouse routines, not a special mouse tool (if you know how to use it, many long time users don't and they miss that true editing power I think I demonstrated fairly well, though that really just gives a glimpse into its power of functionality.

But THEY (Samp) don't have something as "duh" as "duplicate track," which of course, Vegas does, thank you for that, (although it is just copy track, paste track, but a real "huh?" moment there, so all programs miss some easy no brainers)..

Marco. wrote on 9/20/2018, 3:30 AM

"I don't think you (I'm projecting, but that's ok, right?) really need the select the whole project as a timeline "too easy" feature"

There are two cases where I regular use to let the Loop-Region span the whole project:

1. I usually have my render options set to use the Loop-Region only, so to be sure my whole project is rendered I double-click the bar above the Loop-Region before rendering.

2. If I have zoomed into the timeline and want to know how long the whole project is, I double-click above the Loop-Region and take a look at the time display at the lower right corner of the timeline. Yes, the timeline cursor moves to the beginning then but the timeline view stays at its place. So simply clicking somewhere at the current view again brings it back.

zdogg wrote on 9/20/2018, 5:03 AM

Thanks Marco:

It is without a doubt functional, and for many, very desirable, I'm not saying get rid of it, not at all, but perhaps make it a combo key, that way, people don't inadvertently trigger that, and that happens to me, (not the most agile perhaps) fairly often.

Come to think of it, you're right, when you are rendering, especially if you're making a few different renders or experimenting, I probably have used it just the way you described it, but a control click into that area would be certainly not a big inconvenience, not at all, speaking for myself of course.

So, even if that was a checked item, like the space bar/F12 key type of thing, I think that would be appropriate.

There are at least a few key combos/ mouse routines, just generally, that need revisiting, IMHO, and no, not everything I'd want to access, to customize, seems to be in the key commands list. I've started to compile a list, just in case the powers that be would want to know.