Status on DivX support - Now more about the music indystry (and how it can survive).

Panic wrote on 12/1/2002, 7:34 AM
I just did a search for the term "DivX" on this forum, and lots and lots of threads came up. I tried to read as many of them as I could, but unfortunately I didn't really find any good responses from the SF team.

This, of course, could well be because I didn't look hard enough. But from the frustration beaming off my screen from many of the posts, I suppose it just as well could be because you at SF haven't really given a satisfying answer.

Be that as it may, here's a short list (descending by date) of threads about the issue:
http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=139354
http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=117750
http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=113514
http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=112473

My question is simple: What is the status on DivX in regard to VV?

Comments

Spot|DSE wrote on 12/1/2002, 12:10 PM
Since it will start a flurry of F/U's towards me, I'll take the step forward...
Why on earth should SOFO extend one single second of time working on a non-standard, particularly one that has issues with nearly every NLE out there, and even more segregated as a tool/codec of choice by pirates and virtually no one else? The quality of DivX at identical data rates can't begin to compare to Windows Media, a company who provides revenue for SOFO. I wonder how much money DivX has given anyone to develop, market, support, or promote their product. Not one cent. DivX was great, until it became the vehicle of pirates. I can't see SOFO doing anything to work with a pirate-oriented codec. Aside from the liability issues it could potentially raise. I for one, hope that SOFO will focus on tools that benefit the users of the application from a creative point. DivX does nothing for the creative side of the tools.
Panic wrote on 12/1/2002, 12:29 PM
Now, why is DivX "the vehicle of pirates"? A pirate would't mind coding his movies with a cracked version of any coding utility, so the availability of DivX isn't really an issue. I really can't answer my own question. I've just assumed that DivX is the best codec for internet distribution of videos...

And to assume that all video distribution on the internet is connected to piracy is quite frankly...hmmm...insulting.

(And why shall we ALLWAYS run for the solutions from Redmond? Haven't we let them buy and bully off too many competitors allready?)


asafb wrote on 12/1/2002, 1:49 PM
Who uses DivX today? With HD-DVD on the horizon, I'll stick w/ mpeg-2

(my .2c)
ab
shawnm wrote on 12/1/2002, 4:37 PM
>I've just assumed that DivX is the best codec for internet distribution of videos...

Actually DivX is a hacked version of MS's MPEG 4 CODEC, wich is perceptually inferior to Windows Media 8 video CODEC - let alone WM9 which, although in beta - is by far the best quality streaming audio/video CODEC (I've seen) available today.

>(And why shall we ALLWAYS run for the solutions from Redmond?

Not always, only when they're clearly the better choice - incidently by using DivX, you ARE using an MS CODEC (in a way). Windows Media's newest CODECs are superior to offerings from Real, Apple and DivX - I would also counter your comment by asking why should we run AWAY from MS solutions, when they are better?

Shawn



Spot|DSE wrote on 12/1/2002, 8:27 PM
I wouldn't dare say that all media distributed on the internet is pirated media. Not by a long shot. However, the MAJORITY by far of all stolen movies, many of which are pirated before they even hit the theatres now, are encoded to DivX. Because of their marketing association in the early days with DVD ripping sites, their still-continued association with ripping sites, and their absolute stance that copyrights are a farce, DivX slit their own throat with most professionals a LOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGG time ago.
That said, Microsoft may have bullied, or may have not bullied this market space. I don't give a damn. Their codec is the best in the bitrate war, and I'm sticking with em' regardless of their politics. At the least, they help provide tools to protect professionals like me from MP3 and video/film pirates. That alone is worth me supporting them as best I can.
TorS wrote on 12/2/2002, 3:06 AM
At the least, they help provide tools to protect professionals like me from MP3 and video/film pirates. That alone is worth me supporting them as best I can.

Hear! Hear!

I'm a songwriter and the pirates are not only stealing from me, they are defying my legal (and moral) rights as well as undermining my livelihood.
I do not think Microsoft is fighting for MY rights, but they are working to keep the distribution of multimedia content accountable. Without such accountability my (anybody's) rights doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Tor
Panic wrote on 12/2/2002, 6:31 AM
I never ment this to be a piracy thread. Neither was my intention to ignite a discussion on copyright management or any other such systems.

All I wanted to KNOW, was what the status on SF's DivX support was.

That said, I am nothing less than scared by the development in the "licensing" and "rights management" systems that MS has underway. I'm not getting in to all that here, but MS, the music industry and the movie industry scares me, with their will to completely ignore the end user in their battle for profit. Hm. So much for not wanting to "ignite" :p

-P-
grig wrote on 12/2/2002, 6:51 AM
encoding is ok, decoding is the problem!!!

just try to import a Divx file, you'll have that black clip!!
NO PICTURE!!!

Or may be, it's just me!!!
Panic wrote on 12/2/2002, 7:05 AM
No, it's not just you. It's everyone that has at least 3.0c. And I was asking for the status on SF's potentially existing work towards supporting DivX (decoding for NLE purposes). And I am still waiting ;)
rextilleon wrote on 12/2/2002, 7:18 AM
The music and film industry, as pathetic as they often are, are the primary game in town for protecting creative output. I would worry less about them and more about the pervasive atitude that exists among many--It's okay to steal as long as I dont get caught.
Panic wrote on 12/2/2002, 7:42 AM
It is not under any circumstanses ok to steal, but I just personally think that the ways the film and music industry goes about to prevent stealing is just the wrong way.

Experts and scientists have said for a long time - and I have agreed - that propriatary (?..spelling....) formats and strickt restrictions for use will NEVER "win" people over to the "right side" of the law.

But whatever, this is for another thread and maybe for another forum.

-P-
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/2/2002, 8:58 AM
1. DivX changed THEIR format. Vegas can't read it anymore. That's DivX's problem, no matter what. It's a little used codec by legitimate producers.
2. It costs a GREAT deal of money to write code, and if writing that code ISN'T going to provide any reasonably significant revenue for a software company, why should they spend the effort when they can work on revenue-producing features.
3. DivX is seen as a tool for pirates. What is SOFO's liability when it comes down that SOFO encourages the use of pirates tools? Don't you DARE say "No Liability!!" Car manufacturers, gun manufacturers, drug manufacturers, and even soda pop manufacturers have all been held liable when their product is used in an illegal, unsafe, or other manner for which it was not intended.
Vegas is becoming a tool for pirates anyway, because it is open to nearly any format, and can convert nearly anything to anything. But that doesn't mean SOFO has to encourage it.
DivX changed THEIR code. It's THEIR responsibility to make THEIR product work in Vegas. They changed THEIR code because they were ripping off Microsoft and had no choice. It was change or die. Vegas isn't the only application that can't read DivX 5 files.
Panic wrote on 12/2/2002, 10:08 AM
"...and if writing that code ISN'T going to provide any reasonably significant revenue for a software company, why should they spend the effort when they can work on revenue-producing features."

I can dig that. I just want a straight forward answer. Is SF planning to include DivX support, and if so when. If not, well, too bad. If somebody at SF would cre to explain why, I'd be one piece of information wiser.

That's all.
JonnyMac wrote on 12/2/2002, 12:16 PM
Now you have me curious ... how is protecting the owner of a Copyright in any way affecting the end user? Unless, of course, that "end user" is actually a thief and is pirating product instead of paying for it as they should have. I work as an actor and am also affected [residual payments] when product is pirated instead of payed for.

-- Jon McPhalen
-- Dallas, TX
JonnyMac wrote on 12/2/2002, 12:18 PM
Didn't Spot make it abundantly clear? There is no gain for SoFo to spend money to provide DivX support and it was DivX that made the change that created the current compatibility problem.
SonyEPM wrote on 12/2/2002, 12:45 PM
SF: We are not currently working on anything related to DivX, read or write. If we do release an update/upgrade with improved DivX support, this forum will be notified.

kkolbo wrote on 12/2/2002, 1:22 PM
Tactful answer EPM. :)

K

kkolbo wrote on 12/2/2002, 1:26 PM
Regardless of any other issue. SoFo does not stand to profit from specifically coding support for DivX. I believe there are many other projects that will benifit users more and generate more profit for SoFo.

As for liability, McDonalds is being sued because the Big Mac quote, Makes kids fat. What a world, huh?

K
Chienworks wrote on 12/2/2002, 1:35 PM
I'm sticking my nose in a bit late, especially since i haven't used DivX for anything since version 4.0something. I do recall though, that Vegas didn't include any support for DivX whatsoever. In order to read/write DivX files, i downloaded and installed the DivX codec, and then Vegas (and any other video software on my system) could read/write DivX files. In this same manner, i also added support for MJPEG, huffyuv, and a few other codecs that Vegas didn't provide support for. Now, if DivX releases a new version of the codec and it doesn't work with software installed on the user's system, i would tend to look to DivX to provide the fix, since they provided the faulty codec.

In other words, Sonic Foundry didn't provide DivX support and they didn't break it either. Why ask them to fix it?
stepfour wrote on 12/2/2002, 4:49 PM
"Tactful answer EPM. :)"

... and I pray that tactfulness remains prevalent in this forum.
williamconifer wrote on 12/2/2002, 8:00 PM
*warning the following diatribe contains strong personal opinion. Reader discreation is advised*

Let's keep in mind that in the music industry, this "copyright rebellion" is a reaction to that industries business practices towards the artist and customer. Keep in mind that a CD has various copyright's. One is for the recording (which is usually owned by the record company) another is the publishing of the song itself (which maybe the artist, record company or both). I believe there is a third but I can't remember off the top of my head. ANyway. In contrast to the book publishing industry, the one who ownes the recording copyright owns it period. So when Aimee Mann (some one who bucked the major labels) sells her latest album she gets her due for that record & the publishing (now and in the future). You're average recording artist signed to a major lable does not have it that good. The Label usually holds the copyright no matter how many times the proceeds of the sale of that recording has paid for the recording/production/promotion costs. oh and btw, the customary contract states that the artist's up front money is a draw against the 10-15% of the recording revenue. What the artist usually doesn't realize that all of the audio and video recording cost's are applied not to revenue but as a draw against the artist's 10-15% cut. So what does the Major Label actually pay for? The manufacturing and promotion. Period. When Chuck D from Public Enemy referred to major labels as Pimps, he hit it right on the head.

The recording industry screwed up when they decided to publish everything on an unsecure digital format (CD's). Pandora's box was opened and there is no going back. I believe the the folks that are truely getting screwed with this music "piracy" are the majors and that's fine with me. They have been screwing long enough. I think the independant and unkown artist's need to find an income niche and be thankful that WinMX is getting their music heard. I'll tell you now Joe Musician has a better chance of having his mucic heard now then he did 10-15 years ago. What some call piracy is in some way a new form of promotion. I do think there are limits to this. Someone needs to pay for the music and I think music will always sell. However I believe music needs to be heard for it to be of any value. If the majors have their way you will have to pay everytime you want to hear your favorite song. And heaven forbid you get bored of a CD and give it to a friend. The majors desprately want to destroy the used CD trade.

You ask how a copyright owner can screw the customer? When the Label owns the copyright AND how, when, where, and how often you can listen to your purchase I think the answer is obvious. And believe me the major music lables are heading this direction. Funny thing is by the time they get there no one will care because they will have lost a majority of their customer base to independant music distribution over the internet. I believe that the MP3 codec and Napster has actually saved music.

Wow, sorry for the soap box posturing. I just got sick of seeing too many great bands get totally screwed over the past 30 years.

peace,
jack
JonnyMac wrote on 12/2/2002, 10:00 PM
Bull. Same old Robin Hood philosophy that has so many people walking around with the attitude that they are owed something. As artists [I act] we know what we're in for when we sign up with a "major" [a producer, in my case]. If we don't like the terms, we go elsewhere with our product. It's a free country.

Piracy is piracy. It's against the law and "sticking it to the big guy" is no justification for doing it. Question: Why is whining [about imagined "evil empires"] so much easier to muster up than to stand on one's own two feet?
TorS wrote on 12/3/2002, 2:25 AM
Jack,
... this "copyright rebellion" is a reaction to that industries business practices towards the artist and customer.

There are conflicting interests between artists and record companies, actors and producers, because they work together and yet have their own axes to grind. They are partners and competitors at the same time, like workers and companies or customers and shops. It’s a partnership. The two are pulling at the same money, and yes, the one is usually much stronger than the other. But the other can go elsewhere.

To use that situation as an excuse for anyone to help themselves to what that partnership is producing is worse than a misunderstanding, it’s a perversion. You’re saying that shoplifters are not thieves, they are concerned citizens making a statement about how workers and paying customers are being treated.
You ought to wash your mouth!

Tor
Panic wrote on 12/3/2002, 5:20 AM
Interesting...

Ok, since I've gotten my answer, and this thread has derailed anyhow, I'll take my stand on the soap box as well:

First of all, I'm 28 years old, and a fifth year student at a norwegian university where I'm studying electrical engineering and computer sciense.

For the past years I've been very interested in the development of various licensing schemes, both for software and for multimedia. I suppose it all started with Napster, and the music industry's reaction, and at the moment I'm actually working on new licensing solution for my "major".

Why am I telling you this? To try and convinse you that I'm not just any newbie shouting his oppinion on the subject ;)

From now on I will be takling about multimedia content licensing. Software licensing is quite a different ballgame. A much easier one btw.

So when did ever licensing of music become an issue that normal people had to deal with? With the Internet of course. Before the Internet people had to rely on radio stations and record shops to get access to music. Listening to the radio is all just fine, but people more dedicated to music wanna be able to play the music whenever they feel like it, and thus have to posess it, one way or the other. Before the internet you either had to buy a record (LP, tape, CD, whatever), or you had to record it from the radio or copy it from friends. All this was quite legal btw.

All this was fine and dandy, for some people, but then came the Internet, and people started to understand what they had been missing out on. And what was that? Some of you, I'm sure, are thinking "lots and lots of FREE, PIRATED music". Well, that's partly right. What I was thinking was -lots- of music they had never heard of before. Suddanly people could DL mp3s, and do it for free. And as shady as that task may be, the result was that a whole lot of people got to experience new music, music they would never even had heard of before - if it wasn't for the Internet. And before anyone knew it, the Internet became one of the biggest distributing systems for music in existance, and as I'm sure you all remember, Napster was leading the way. Leading the way into a new world where average people started to take interest in music, in artists, that by far outranged the narrow spectrum of music that was being played on the radio and marketed on the TV.

Then came the music industry'e first, and maybe biggest mistake. Instead of embracing Napster, and the technology and community around it, they tried to strangle it.

Now why did that happen? Well, I'm not exactly sure, because I recognized the misstake as soon as the music industry made it. I suppose they may have been afraid of change, or they didn't actually understand what was going on, or maybe they actually understood what was going on, but thought they could stop it, and make things go back to the way things were before.

As we all know, they somehow, somewhere, failed spectacularly.

I personaly think that what made things go so wrong, was that the music industry was cought totally off guard. Before they actually knew what was going on, there was this distributing system for music that they had absolutely no control over, and which gave them - the way they (wrongfully) saw it - no revenues. So they imidiately looked upon music distribution over the Internet as a threat. A threath wich had to be neutralized. And they of course did it the american way, with law suites.

And they got Napster. And they got a bunch of other systems. But for each and every one they went after, at least three new appeard on the scene. The one more cleverly designed to withstand attacks from the music industry than the other.

Now, I want to expand on something that I suppose may have raised an eyebrow or two amongst you, some of you being artists and all. I said that the music industry -wrongfully- believed that the free music distribution on the Internet didn't give them any revenues. That assumtion is acrually quite wrong, and even though the music industry are still trying to tell the world that it is the truth, it's a matter of well documented fact that the mass of people activly DLing music from the Internet, also -buy- more music! This has been verified througn several studies.

People that DL music aren't paying for -all- the music they DL, but is that really the point? If they actually leave more money at the counter at the record shop, isn't that what really matters?

I guess some of you, and most of the music industry will dissagree. But then you fail to see one of the secondary effects that all the DLing of music over the Internet. The -free- promotion! This may not work well for Ms Spears and her likes, who has their faces on our TV screens every single commercial break. But for smaller artists, and older (not in age, but in...period) artists this promotion is actually quite significant. New listeners are finding new artists every day. And from time to time, the listener appreciate the artists music so much that he or she wants to -pay- their tribute, quite litteraly.

The more music people listen to, the more music they will actually buy.

But the music industry's answer to this new situation has been law suits and the implementation of copy protection on CDs. And the ability to buy music online - at a rediciolusly high price, and with such restrictins that people just...don't.

I'll take the copy protection first, and now it's time to remember what someone said here before, about how the music industry's protection of their rights wasn't affecting the end user. Copy protection is ment to be a measure against piracy. That, of course, it isn't. Any "pirate" could copy -any- CD, at any given time. It's just a matter of will. What it actually does, is preventing end users that has legaly purchased a CD from playing it on their computer. And as the computer is starting to become the home entertainment center of many homes, this is actually quite bad. Also, it prevents people from playing their CDs on many car stereos, and even worse, from many regular stereos, or rather regular CD players. Why? Because many new stand alone CD players are actually based on CD ROMs, and CD ROMSs are the hardware targeted by most (if not all) copy protection schemes. So copy protection is just plain -bad- for the legal end user.

The "pirate" on the other hand, DLs the album, burns it, and will have no problem playing that CD anywhere.

Then we have the music industry's online music stores, where you can buy digitalized music on the Internet. That should have been great, right? That should have shut me up right there and then, right? But not so. And why not? Because of the way they try to control the music after I DL it. They use proprietary formats instead of mp3. They issue licenses to the files I DL, and tell me I can only play the files on certain players. Most oftenly MS Media Player. Now how is this -not- affecting the end user? If I BUY music, I want to be able to play it any way it suits me. I want to be able to burn it onto a CD-R, and play it in my car. I want to be able to burn a copy to my best friend, and tell him to listen to this great new band I have discovered! But if the music industry has it's way, that will not be possible.

Now I've been attacking the music industry at great length, but what is it I think they -should- have done? Well, I'm not quite sure, but something quite different at least. They should not have "killed" Napster. They should have embraced it. At the time, Napster was the biggest one, and was allmost alone! If the music industry had supported Napster, and they could have agreed on some arrangement, the music industry would have had the chance to play on the same team as what they now call the pirates. Which of course is exactly the same as their main target group for CD sales!

I just read a report made by three researchers on MS's payroll. They concluded that the copy protection strategy of the music industry was a total failure, and the only thing it did was taking the joy out of buying CDs. Well, that's too bad for the music industry, since the alternative to buying CDs, is to DL them free from the Internet.

If I could get access to a network of high quality mp3s, I'd gladly pay $10 a month. If every houshold did that, the music industry would have had revenues they before only could dream of.

But that ship has sailed. Now I look upon the music industry as the enemy, and the music industry looks upon me as theirs. And that's too bad.

I could actually have gone into deeper depths on this issue, since I have lots of strong oppinions on the subject. But I doubt any of you have even read all this :)

I suppose it't time to step down from the soap box now ;)

-P-