The Future of Vegas?

1marcus4 wrote on 1/15/2006, 10:38 AM

It is clear from CES this year that camcorder manufacturers are putting all their resources into DVD and HD data storage methods which utliize MPEG2 rather than DV encoding. With Vegas being a native DV editor and other better MPEG2 editors out there currently, where is Vegas headed? Should I be focusing all my personal resources on MPEG2 rather than DV?

Mark

Comments

rmack350 wrote on 1/15/2006, 11:02 AM

I suspect that even if developement on Vegas had stopped at version 4 it would still be very useful for another 3 or 4 years. Vegas has a lot of value for web based video.

MPEG2 is and always will be a compromise codec and definitely not the choice for anything beyond prosumer gear. However, Vegas is pretty clearly in the prosumer space, and sony is using MPEG2 for HDV, so I'd expect Vegas developement to pay attention to that.

I kind of expect Sony to do something a bit better than HDV for the lower end of the pro market.

Rob Mack

Coursedesign wrote on 1/15/2006, 11:19 AM

MPEG-2 is not suited for editing. At all.

Search for previous posts here. Even Apple's engineers say not to use it (per DSE), and there is a direct comparison of MPEG-2 footage edited natively vs. with Cineform at HDV Editing Quality Analysis and comparison.

MPEG-2 looks like it is turning out to be a surprisingly intelligent choice for recording (may even be better than DVCPROHD based on early results), and it is the choice for DVDs today, and may be featured on tomorrows high definition DVDs too (as an alternative to MPEG-4 which has issues too).

For the slightly higher end pro market, Sony has XDCAM HD running at a higher bit rate, and of course the CineAlta goodies for when price is no object.

Spot|DSE wrote on 1/15/2006, 11:56 AM

The comment from the Apple engineers has been "yes, you can edit native HDV, but we prefer you use our AIC codec.
re: MPEG 2 for editing, unless you're at very high bitrates and very short GOP (like a 2GOP/I and P frames only) MPEG 2 simply isn't suited for editing. There are too many issues with it.
Yes, you can edit native HDV, which is editing native mpeg. However, understand that a transport stream (m2t means "Mpeg 2, Transport) is not designed for editing in either the 6 GOP or the 14 GOP flavors of HDV. It's designed to be converted/conformed/cross-coded to another format such as the Canopus NX, Avid DnX, Apple AIC, or CineForm codecs. Out of all those, CineForm runs away with performance and quality, partially because it's a great codec, partially because it's wavelet based and the others aren't.
The only places that you're seeing much in the way of MPEG/Camera development is either in the very high end or very low end. Vegas is already set to accomodate both. The high end stuff is importable either via direct import with Sony's MXF reader, or you can use HD/SDI to import.

rmack350 wrote on 1/15/2006, 11:59 AM

Of course the problem is that if cameras record in MPEG2 then prosumers will want to edit in it as well, even when they shouldn't. And if some NLEs work better with mpeg2 then consumers with that need will want to use those products.

The tightrope to walk for software developers is to make mpeg2 easy to work with while still guiding users to better choices that will make the product shine and reduce the uninformed griping.

Like any feature. Make it easy and lead people to the best choices.

Rob Mack

johnmeyer wrote on 1/15/2006, 5:14 PM

And sometimes the only format available is MPEG-2. If all you want/need is cuts-only, it seems a crime to have to re-compress.

Coursedesign wrote on 1/15/2006, 5:28 PM

From the Quality Analysis in my link above:

Beginning in this second generation [...] we can begin to see that editing using CineForm Intermediate as the editing format, even if you need to export back to MPEG2 at project completion, has a sustainable visual quality advantage over editing in native MPEG2.

MH_Stevens wrote on 1/15/2006, 6:17 PM

There are some good counters to the assertion that Vegas has a problem with m2t, however there is merit to the argument that a consumer buyer who has just got his HDV camera and wants an editor will be confused or annoyed when he is told to use a third party codex like CineForm to capture his HDV "as an avi." We all know that capturing HDV confuses the heck out of a lot of people here.

Seems to me Vegas needs a seamless integration of CineForm so that the customer who uploads his HDV to Vegas does not see the conversion to avi. Once the footage is on the time-line he will be happy at the fast editing speed and will not be concerned about its format.

Wes C. Attle wrote on 1/16/2006, 5:32 AM

MH Stevens, I agree with your long term plan.

For short-term, just give me m2t scene detection during capture within Vegas! Then I can convert QUICKLY only the scenes I need to Cineform (If I, Joe Blow prosumer, decide to edit the specific project with Cineform).

I think Vegas (Sony) is actually positioning itself well to expand rapidly and dominate the consumer, prosumer, and quasi-sumer PSP type next generation video editing crowds. I feel much better about the future of Vegas than I did just after the Sonic Foundry abduction.

I am not sure all good old fashioned true DV editors who stay with the old ways will continue to be happy with Vegas though. We are already seeing a sacrifice in basic NLE stability and reliability in an effort to expand the core feature set.

I personally love the new features. But I might go postal with 6.0c if video editing was my day job with deadlines.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 1/16/2006, 7:38 AM

We will need some different points:

- even for m2t material, that is not calculated new, I would like to see some kind of smartrendering. The small and low-cost software womble performs here terrible well. I would like to be able to turn smart rendering on and off - since for a test-rendering, smart rendering on would be great; for the final output a complete new GOP structure is preferable, to my opinion. So, a switch is required here.

- we will need a capture function that behaves very stable, like we have it today for DV-avi. It should include a preview. It should include an automatic scene detection. It should include to converte during capturing both to an intermediate codec (I would like to be able to design here parameters - e.g. switch between the Canopus HQ and the Cineform codec, since the Canopus HQ still shows better performance to my opinion). Capturing should work to native m2t single files for each scene, too - if desired. What we will edit in future, will depend on the prefered workflow - and on quality limitations. Both - the Cineform Connect HD and also Edius show: it is not impossible, even on today-PCs.

- we will need a solution for the "70- or 100 m2t file dilema" - Vegas must not crash if you import 70 or 100 or 150 single m2t files to the timeline, as we have it today in even Vegas 6c. Edius does not show that behaviour, nor does womble.

- we will need better preview capabilities for editing. It is not acceptable, that 1080 50i m2t material can be played back with 9-12 fps only (PAL, where we expect to see 25 fps). Even the windows movie maker is able to playback a 1080 50i file on a 3.2 Ghz P4 with full preview quality. In Vegas, even dual core pcs does not allow good real time preview capabilities when you edit m2t. Why?

- Vegas will need some new codec developments - for example, to support upcoming camcorders like the Panasonic DVCPRO HD.

- We will need other high-quality encoders, for example to H.264 in full HD(V) size.

So there is a lot to do.