The GoPro Hero3 Vegas Raw Challenge!

Andy_L wrote on 4/8/2013, 12:33 PM
Hey everyone this seems like a perfect job to crowdsource, so here goes: I've uploaded two files of the same scene shot using a Hero3 Black Ed. One file uses the GoPro's standard image processing, the other uses GP's new "Protune" RAW mode.

http://www.sierradescents.com/GOPR0002.MP4
http://www.sierradescents.com/GOPR0003.MP4

Here's the challenge: download both files, then make the RAW file look like the standard camera file USING ONLY VEGAS' TOOLS and post how you did it (ie, your plugins and settings) here.

****

I confess I can get a very nice color rendition out of the RAW file using Photoshop, and I can get wonderful detail out of the RAW file using 2 passes of sharpening again in Photoshop, but I'm floundering badly when it comes to matching color, contrast, and sharpening in Vegas.


Yes, these aren't really RAW files, they're MP4. But what a stroke of genius on the part of GoPro to give us this option, which is so data-rich but still manageable in file size! It stuns me that GoPro came up with this, rather than one of the big guys like, oh, I don't know, say, Sony?

Once you see how much detail you can tease out of these files, you'll wonder why every other pro-grade camera doesn't offer something similar.

Another thought: these files are both shot at 1080/24P, and they both look fantastic considering the Hero3 is a helmet cam. In fact, for detail and cleanliness, this might be beating every other camera I've got. That said, the Hero3 will also shoot 2.7K at 30P, and my quick tests absolutely confirm you're getting even more resolution and detail at the 2.7K setting -- again, shocking!

It's a very impressive camera...


Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 4/8/2013, 3:16 PM
Prediction: One will be able to get close in VP 12 with S-log corrections and some twiddling. Earlier versions of Vegas will take much more work. I tried in VP 8 with some other Protune footage, but "just" applying a 2.2 gamma correction wasn't enough.

But having these two files available will be interesting -- to see how Cineform Studio correction compares with normal (contrasty) GoPro footage. Thanks for the uploads.

dlion wrote on 4/8/2013, 3:51 PM
i agree, mv, using the movie looks or vasst presets as a start.

interesting vegas challenge.
Laurence wrote on 4/8/2013, 4:12 PM
How about just using the new color match feature? I'll bet that would be really easy and really close!
NormanPCN wrote on 4/8/2013, 8:21 PM
As a Hero3 Black owner, this is interesting. I have not played with this yet. Guess now is the time.

I'm game but a couple of questions.

As I understand it the ProTune files are in 0-255 (computer RGB) range. True? If yes then we need to apply a computer to studio RGB adjustment after we have made our adjustments.

protune files are in Log format. When I change the "color space" field in the media properties field to Log from default I see no difference in display. Should that make any difference? Seems to make sense to tell Vegas the source format and it should cause some visual difference. Yes/No?

My initial tweaks seem fine, they don't "match", but I had questions as stated.

I don't want to match the GoPro white balance however. I suppose I could but I don't want to.

Right now I am using the following. In this order.
levels (gamma), Color curves (contrast), saturation adjust (duh), sony USM (duh), levels (computer to studio)
Andy_L wrote on 4/8/2013, 9:26 PM
Norman I don't know anything about the color space setting in properties. Doesn't seem to do anything on my machine either.

The ProTune files are in computer RGB, so you do need to do a levels conversion at some point to create a conforming file--depending of course on output format/codec.

I'm at about the same with Color Curves to add contrast, levels to pull midtone brightness down a bit (could also use curves), saturation up using Secondary Correction Tool (HSL Adjust adds artifacts/banding for some reason), and then levels to convert to video levels for output.

I'm with you on white balance: ProTune using the RAW balance setting gives better color. But it's nice to try to match the standard look to see how they're building it.

I'm about at the point when I'm going to conclude that Vegas' Unsharp Mask is crap. I can't come close to the quality of the sharpness in the standard file (which is probably a little much), and I definitely can't come close to the quality of sharpness using Photoshop.

If anyone out there has a magic sharpening setting you'd like to share, I'd love to hear it.

I've also been playing around with the Cineform Studio product that ships with the GoPro to see how that conversion compares.

It's fast, and you can very easily match the standard look using presets, although interestingly the sharpness isn't as good here either (but better than Vegas).

Would have never thought the in-cam sharpness produces a better result than Vegas and Cineform Studio can do. I wonder if PP can match Photoshop's sharpness quality?


malowz wrote on 4/8/2013, 9:55 PM
my results:

"standard"

raw processed


NormanPCN wrote on 4/8/2013, 10:45 PM
I wonder if the color space setting only means something in 32-bit float color mode.

Yes, Sony USM sucks. The plain Sony Sharpen works well enough.

I used Saturation Adjust. Secondary color for sat changes that you used seems simpler.

The Sony tools kinda suck for multiple changes so I use multiple times in the chain.. I am used to photoshop.

in order in the effect chain.
levels - gamma .85
levels - red gamma .99
color curves - contrast to taste/match. can't list control point like in PS.
color corr secondary - sat 2.0
sharpen - .75
levels - computer to studio
VidMus wrote on 4/8/2013, 11:26 PM
How do I download these videos?

I copy and paste the addresses in another tab and all I can get is quicktime wanting to play them.

If there were links in your post I would right click and then save-target-as but I cannot do that.

Something obvious I am not seeing?
malowz wrote on 4/8/2013, 11:33 PM
try with these links (right click > save link as)
GOPR0002.MP4
GOPR0003.MP4
VidMus wrote on 4/8/2013, 11:35 PM
Thanks that allowed me to download them.
VidMus wrote on 4/9/2013, 12:04 AM
I cannot make them an exact match but I can make them fairly close. The one that originally looks blah, I can make it look better than the other one.

I started with the color match in Vegas 12 and then used Sony levels to not only change the levels but the gamma as well. Used Sony sharpen and got real close there. Color corrector secondary for a touch of saturation and hue adjustments.

On using color match I have preview set for best-full and copy the image to clipboard. Use clipboard in the color match. The color match was fairly close all by itself minus the sharpness. I did not play with the brightness in color match. might have made a difference.

Anyway, something to play with.

Marton wrote on 4/9/2013, 1:31 AM
Forget Sony USM filter, use the simple Sharpen instead, with around 0.6 amount. On the treees, the sharpness will be equal. Too bad the power lines will be aliased :(

If i use CC with +2.0 saturation the edge of the red car will be more pixelated than on the standard file. Looks like a 4:2:0 limitation. But on the standard file it looks good. So what else can we use?
musicvid10 wrote on 4/9/2013, 10:20 AM
I know this wasn't the assignment, but FWIW:

By way of explanation, the third image was converted to Cineform in GP Studio using the default settings, and then exported back to MP4 using the Protune preset. No other adjustments were made. Personally, I think GP Studio overdid it a bit.



Andy_L wrote on 4/9/2013, 10:26 AM
Malowz,

Thanks for embedding the links!

Your RAW version is a really pleasing rendition. Which tools did you use? And how did you add the sharpening?
malowz wrote on 4/9/2013, 11:05 AM
saturation boost with HSL adjust (x2) (different from CC saturation)

exposure reduction with the invert-levels-invert technique (also CC red levels this way)

unsharpmask (x2)

of course, with the target of looking closer to the other one, not "visually the best". Heavily CC a h.264 4:2:0 video its not the best idea.

i was going to do some selective adjustments for better match, but feels like cheating ;P
Andy_L wrote on 4/9/2013, 1:30 PM
Some info on Protune: http://cineform.blogspot.com/2012/10/protune.html
musicvid10 wrote on 4/9/2013, 1:49 PM
"Heavily CC a h.264 4:2:0 video its not the best idea."

That isn't how Protune was intended to be used, and I can see no advantages, but a whole lot of headaches as a result.

Instead of importing raw Protune mp4 into Vegas for cc / editing, unpack it in Cineform Studio to its full 10-bit, 4:2:2 AVI state first. The advantages of working in that space in a Vegas 32-bit float project should be apparent from a grading and CC standpoint, and that was the intention David Newman had, not using the deflated Protune mp4 directly.
Laurence wrote on 4/9/2013, 2:45 PM
>Instead of importing raw Protune mp4 into Vegas for cc / editing, unpack it in Cineform Studio to its full 10-bit, 4:2:2 AVI state first. The advantages of working in that space in a Vegas 32-bit float project should be apparent from a grading and CC standpoint, and that was the intention David Newman had, not using the deflated Protune mp4 directly.

Cineform has recently been totally redone, and upgrades to the new software from the older versions that many of us have are currently quite inexpensive. I just upgraded the other day. It really is worth trying out the new GoPro software workflow before deciding whether or not to reject it. Their cameras are so reasonable, and yet if you use their workflow, the results you can get are really spectacular. Sticking with previous methods gives results that are somewhat mundane in comparison.
NormanPCN wrote on 4/9/2013, 3:03 PM
", unpack it in Cineform Studio to its full 10-bit, 4:2:2 AVI state first. "

I understand that 10-bit 4:2:2 is better, but the GoPro generates 8-bit 4:2:0.

What does wrapping a lower source in better clothes give you and how?
Vegas works in YUV/RGB and color subsampling is no longer in the picture. That (4:2:0, 4:2:2, etc) is a file encoding thing. I can understand working in a fuller/broader space (e.g. 10-bit) when shifting tone around quite a bit can help. But Vegas converting the source to this space should be just as good as someone else (CineForm studio) and that someone else reencoding into some other format and space.

That said, you do want to get the heck out of the high bitrate GoPro H.264 files. They are hard to edit. I recently edited some 1080p60 Hero3 files and had to smart proxy them because Vegas could to playback those files smoothly. Protune files would be worse.
Laurence wrote on 4/9/2013, 3:29 PM
The point of rewrapping in a higher definition codec is that color correction and dynamic range changes don't go through the same level of damage. Theoretically this happens with any 8 bit video codec in Vegas, but in actual practice, it is far from as optimized as the GoPro routines.
musicvid10 wrote on 4/9/2013, 4:42 PM
Laurence,
+1
Again.

"I understand that 10-bit 4:2:2 is better, but the GoPro generates 8-bit 4:2:0.

No, my reading of David Newman's articles indicates the pristine 10-bit 4:2:2 source is there inside the MP4, but it can't be accessed until unpacked by Cineform. Merely opening the MP4 in a 32 bit float project won't do it.

Having the Protune MP4 open as it is flagged (8-bit 4:2:0) is merely a fallback state, roughly the same as AC3 looks like stereo to non-surround decoders.

I'll locate and link to the highly detailed article I read, time permitting.

NormanPCN wrote on 4/9/2013, 5:06 PM
If you are talking about this article,
http://cineform.blogspot.com/2012/10/protune.html

I have read it.

If 10-bit 4:2:2 is in the MP4 file, and Vegas is only getting 8-bit 4:2:0 then there must be two independent streams. I highly doubt that.

Vegas can certainly read a 10-bit 4:2:2 H.264 stream like anyone else. The file is not big enough for two streams.

One thing I know they did with protune was output 0-255, versus studio 16-235. A few extra bits for extra dynamic range. Not the same as a true 10-bit.

They also have metadata that their CineForm studio software can read to help give you a stock GoPro output, besides stating, hey I am a protune file.
musicvid10 wrote on 4/9/2013, 5:41 PM
No, Norman, Protune is log based, not gamma based, as you already know. So the data can be remapped and recovered in the same form as it existed. How it is flagged is really quite irrelevant to my understanding, except for fallback purposes.

But I'm not the guy you want to be talking to. David Newman, head developer and CEO of Cineform, is a friend of these forums, and very willing to answer questions in as much detail as you would like. Contact him through the GoPro website, or wait for him to drop in here and search his own brand names, something he does from time to time

I'm enjoying learning about this stuff, it is exhilarating.
But I certainly don't know enough to argue with you about the intricacies of emergent technology, nor am I willing to do so. Best.

Andy_L wrote on 4/10/2013, 9:30 PM
that's a very interesting question: is the extra data in the protune file accessible only via Cineform's decoder, or can an agnostic editing app like Vegas unlock the same results?