Good point about Vegas being a mature product.

my opinion:

Sony coldn't do much else with Vegas. V4 was awsome. it went from a piddly small (relative to V4), yet amazing, editor for the "holy cow it's AWSOME!" in V4. Hard to top that. I don't find Sony at fault there. It's like trying to make the wheel more round. :?

BUT... I've found that since Sony took over the support SUCKS! (short story: I gave my dad my copy of V4 when i got vegas 6. He needed the "e" update to get it to register because that contained the correct registeration code with Sony instead of Sonic Foundry. That was last year. Well, last week he went to install V4 on a different comp because his laptop went in for service. Wouldn't register off the install cd. So he called tech suppt. They couldn't figure it out so they told him to chat live. They told him he needed to talk live. They couldn't figure it out & then sent him a registeration patch to get it working. It worked. But you know what the problem was? NOBODY asked what version he was using. All he needed was the 4.0e update & it would of been fine. Two days of tech support because nobody asked "what version of Vegas 4 are you useing/how are you installing it?". Ok, back to my post!). I've waited days/weeks for tech support e-mails, many, many questions like "it's probley based on your pc, not a vegas problem", etc. Before Sony their support was the best. Period. Now they're just like every other company out there: i'd get better support from a puchup bras & I dn't got boobs. :)

Besides support, I'm REALLY disapointed Vegas (i don't really use the other products) aren't as advanced as they could be. Sony seems more interested in making Madison push sony friendly products then a great product. SF gave us HD & a built in monitor while Sony gave us a PSP exporter. Whoop-de-do. Adobe gave us p-shop/afteraffects/ppro intergration while Sony gave us ciniscore.

I just see Sony as not caring (and for us none what so ever) about the software as much as they can possibly force us to buy more sony products. I'd say adobe has a HUGE one up on them there: they make software, they don't have to answer to someone else who can close the company because they don't want to do in-software product placement. I'm not sure how long Sony will support madison. Unless madison can start getting us to morgage our houses to run out & buy blue-ray players, which they refuse to sell us software to author to, buy HD LCD 1080p TV's, which we have no way to produce for, & buy a PS3/PSP, which we can't burn video discs for, they're doomed.

Sony gave us a PSP exporter. Whoop-de-do. Adobe gave us p-shop/afteraffects/ppro intergration while Sony gave us cinescore.

It's much easier to INTEGRATE products... if they are your products. Adobe has an arsenal of products I & other Creatives use on a daily basis. If Premiere Pro were as good as Vegas... I would have been using it years ago. Simply because of the Integration with Photoshop, AE, & Encore DVD.

Now that they also own Macromedia... We'll probably soon see some type of Flash & other Macromedia App Integration. This would be HUGE! (at least for me it would)

I won't even mention Apple. (oops... I did)
----------
I don't feel SONY has given us anything nearly as sweet as SonicFoundry did. It's like, they've got more money/potential but don't have the same drive/goal/intentions for Vegas. Afterall, Sony makes money in sooo many different realms... Vegas just doesn't seem like a main point of interest for them. Seems to me that they view it as a Consumer App. I was hoping they would take it to the professional level.

I think it would be fantastic if the Madison operation could take the same path Harley Davidson took and be an employee owned corporation. Then I bet we'd get the same level of product and customer service we saw in the Sonic Foundry days.

I like it! Maybe under a co-op structure? With open-source licensing?

But I bet they'd need to come up with more than $18 million to buy it back from Sony.

The biggest changes I've noticed pre and post Sony are:
1) The software developers used to post in these forums all the time, now they don't.
2) Each release used to be met with praise for its stability and now each application is met with complaints about how buggy it is.
3) Price increase.

This might be related to the release bugs, but they used to do public betas for new versions and now they don't.

Sync2... nails it. It appears that Sony sees Vegas as a consumer app - not a professional app of the caliber of FCP, PP or Avid. With a bit of work Vegas could run roughshod over the competition. There seems to be a lack of will on Sony's part. I've said it before in this forum, it's a cryin' shame!

3) Price increase.

Are you sure about that?

"Pricing for Vegas 4.0: MSRP $699; download from Sonic Foundry for $489; boxed version from Sonic Foundry for $559. Pricing for Vegas+DVD: MSRP $999; download from Sonic Foundry for $699; boxed version from Sonic Foundry for $799."

Rob

Impact on the product directly... is that there really hasnt been much..
it HAS evovled with the times (ie with the ability to handle technology of today... sort of), but in all, its engine really hasnt changed much..

The filters have not been updated since V4, and the audio engine has only just been announced to support mutltithreaded systems...
Filtering is also still a non event from thrid parties.. compared to Premiere and the 3rd party filters available for it... V is a bit of a joke..

Media management hasnt been an issue for me, as i know how to manage my own media without any help.. i didnt need it then, and i dont need it now...

comparing V4 to V6... whats changed...??
Not much really.. apart from evolutionary tweaks to keep up with todays hardware...
Dolby Digital mixing is still great, however it is marred soley by the 2 formats DVDA supports.. whereas the actual technology and ecoder itself allows for more formats (such as 3.1, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, 1.0...) Problem with this though, is that DVDA DOESNT support these other DD formats.. and this is a MAJOR FLAW... why offer to encode, if one cannot author said encoded format n teh sister applicaiton.... Licensing? One must license the technology to encode to it ANYWAY... so wheres the issue?? user understanding? If teh user doesnt understand. stuff em.. tehy can look it up like everyone else and read teh friggin manual... jeez...

i think they just didnt want to confuse the user base... to be honest, i think theyre patronising the user base by NOT allowing these other formats to be authored... allow me the option to author the files i encode.. if not GET RID OF THE VARIABLE CHANNEL ENCODER and only leave stereo and 5.1... dont offer 1.0 or 5.0 if u have no intention of letting me deliver the bloody thing..

rant over..

moving back on topic.. impact..
well Sony purchased SoFo as SoFo were innovative in their approach.. it was also teh only app at teh time t offer HD... Before HD was even a consideration by many in fact..

the SW is powerful.. very powerful.. its also very flexible.. and before sony released the FX and Z1's, they had the ownership of an established program which could handle the formats of these new cameras....

I think that THAT is all they really wanted..

a means to edit what the cameras captured...

Much like XDCamHD now... with V7... how else is one going to edit this material, unless they go a hardcore Avid system... how else is a DS570 user who shoots weddings is going to edit once he upgrades his ENG type cam to HD...

theres no ENG type cam which offers HDV... so XDCam is the oonly option for these hardcore fanboys..
So Sony offer these fanboys a means to edit their footage.... in turn, not only nailing the camera sale... but also the NLE sale as theres really not all that much support for XDCamHD ON THIS LEVEL for the event shooter... not the kind of support theyr touting on V7 anyway...

In the past, i dont think SoFo were really into being as comeptitve as Sony are.. i think this explains the absence of responses to some threads.... the competition is now VERY stiff... and sony in their wisdom, dont wish for leaks to occur.
understandable.. but this too is flawed...

I'll explain... their testing methods are a farce.. I am yet to come across a BETA tester outsied the US...who uses vegas 10hours a day to make a liveliehood from it...

In addition, (ive said this before and i'll say it again.. ) those testing the software seem to put more effort into milking the product for their OWN gain, as opposed to creating a better product.

A perfect example is a beta tester having acess to the product, then focusing more on how to "write a manual " as opposed to actually using it to a point until it breaks... this has happened before...

BUT Thats what BETA testing is all about.. Its about using a product in any way shape or form in teh way it was designed, in an attempt to break it.. push the program until it struggles and falls over..
Then to report back to the developer and explain the situation.. explain what was done, and offer a suggestion as to how this issue can be reproduced and eventually fixed..

its a very simple concept...

But instead, we have Beta testers spending this precious time writing up manuals and user guides, books and training videos and websites... all the while the product sits there rotting in its own demise simply because it was neglected during this critical time as it floated in the womb..

If i am wrong, Explain to me how V6 was released the way it was..
Hell.. instead... within 2 or so weeks of launch, books were announced..
No offense, but youre supposed to TEST the bugger.. not write about it...

its a PRIVILEDGE to be a tester an a job which is taken seriously.. hell i test for AvidLiquid and Edius.. but i dont go round writng books about it..

I test it.. i break it.. i help fix it... I dont like the applications personally as theyre not really my style, but i do it becuase it exposes me to other tools which may make my work far more efficient... and in many times, they have.. but in the end, i still have a responsibility to their user base to ensure a quality product upon release... EVERY app is buggy... some more than others.. however in vegas case, its blatantly clear what some of these Beta testers motivations really are... (ive even spoken about this in the past.... when V6 was launched i believe... and im hoping with V7, i am wrong.. i WANT to be wrong with this.. lets just see how wrong i am... only time will tell))

I said this in another thread.. my Vegas is a tool.. a tool i use to make money for my livelihood... like a mechanic, a builder or an electrician.. if my tools do not allow me to make money while working efficiently... i change my tools..
Its a simple equation...

To many like myself, this industry is NOT a hobby.. and i think when Sony realise this.. THAT is when we'll see Vegas taken seriously..
Its not a hobbyists toy, however many users from other NLEs see it as such...
Sony Markets it as such and therefore, it is SEEN as a hobbyist tool.. targetted to hobby video producer wannabes

Editors and producers are serious people. They deal with large amounts of money and VERY demanding clients. Its because of us that companies like Sony and Panasonic can sell their equipment... why? becuase we KNOW what we need to produce what we make...
Like a chef that knows which pots and pans AND which ingredients to use to make THAT dish...
Its becuase of us that these comapnies can thrive in the meakest of economies...

There is a demand for what we do... there is a demand for good quality, fast and efficient video work
However to provide to these demands, the producer must have the perfect set of tools...FOR THEM

Without these tools, without the pots and pans.. without the spanner... one cannot work.. Without these.. one cannot make money and a liveliehood..
if Sony sell us the tools we need, then we'll buy it..
If they refuse to give us what we need, then we will go to another Shop..
Like i said, its a simple equation...

The other issue is market penetration..
who are sony targeting?? the amateur who wants to be pro?? this is what it looks like to me....

from here, we'll have to see how V7 pans out..
all i can say is that i hope that it doesnt end up like another 6....

> I am yet to come across a BETA tester outsied the US...who uses vegas 10hours a day to make a liveliehood from it...

I have. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean they don’t exist. ;-)

> those testing the software seem to put more effort into milking the product for their OWN gain, as opposed to creating a better product. A perfect example is a beta tester having acess to the product, then focusing more on how to "write a manual " as opposed to actually using it to a point until it breaks... this has happened before...

Let see, who could you be talking about? How many books are there on Vegas? There’s Vegas 6 Editing Workshop by DSE that was released Nov 2005, and then there is Vegas 6 Revealed by Doug Sahlin that was release THREE MONTHS EARLIER in Sept 2005. Assuming Sahlin is a beta tester, we are talking about two (2) people out of the entire beta test program. Do you really feel the entire program is a farse (your words not mine) because two people write books?

I think that’s an insult to the entire beta testing community since obviously their testing doesn’t count according to you.

Besides that, you are wrong. To write a book, you must actually use ALL of the features and can give far greater coverage of features than the average beta tester. So I would say that beta testers who write books are actually more valuable in some resects because they give the product more methodical coverage.

There is no other way you could write a book. It takes a minimum of 9 months from the time you start writing to the time it hits the shelves. Since a new version of the software comes out every 12 months, that would give the book a shelf life of a whapping 3 months before it is out of date. No publisher is going to let you write a book that is only accurate for 3 months. EVERYONE who writes books on software gets advanced copies of the software so that the book and software can be released almost simultaneously.

> But instead, we have Beta testers spending this precious time writing up manuals and user guides, books and training videos and websites...

You bet! Just like books on FCP, SONAR and Cubase, etc. get announced with new product releases. It’s called, “loading the channels”. You get everyone that supports your product to get on board and announce new versions of their add-on (plug-in, book, instructional videos, whatever) simultaneously with the new release.

How would you feel if you paid $1400 for Boris RED and had to wait 6 months for them to make it compatible with Vegas 7 because we can’t let beta testers profit by developing new compatible versions of their plug-ins can we. How are books and videos any different? Customers expect to have books, videos, plug-ins, etc. ready to go when a new product ships.

Like I said, I think you owe all Vegas beta testers an apology if the only people who can make the product better are the two who are writing books.

~jr

the day i found out Sony (the entire company) makes less money then Nintendo, i started to have serious doubts about Vegas ever becoming more. :(

Just got back home, to London, from Amsterdam IBC '06, after having had my "pound-earning" studio closed for nearly a week.

I spent much time with the Madison team asking questions and getting neat replies. Why did I do this? - I did this 'cos I wanted to do it. It is VERY obvious to me, and after much "behind-the-scenes" activity Madison is very serious about a European presence. I like this!

I've just been catching up with my emails and my various posts.

This thread is truly fascinating. I'm going to think long and hard about a reply. But what DOES emerge from the input thus far is a depth of care and love people for this product. Sometimes it might appear rough and ready, but again it is a wish for Vegas to survive and still capture out imagination. For me Vegas still does. I can only think that this will be the case for the future too.

From what I've garnered over then past weekend, there are bright and creative brains behind our software.

Graham "Grazie" Bernard

free speech - great

capitalism - great

ketchup - natural melatonin - great

video wannabe's - great

attainable software that span's wannabe's to pro's - great

man I gotta switch to decaf!

PUT that Decaf down!

"Like I said, I think you owe all Vegas beta testers an apology if the only people who can make the product better are the two who are writing books."

LOL, noone gets an apology, as i am not sorry for airing my views...
and no, i didnt say that it was 2 people.. maybe i should have been a a little more specific..

There are many sites out there many books and many a training resource which is using this Beta Priviledge as a means for personal or monetary gain.... THAT is my point... i wasnt being specifc and i wasnt naming names and these 2 people are jsut that.. 2 people... whether or not theyer beta testers i dont know, and frankly i dont care.. what i am saying is that MORE testers are needed if this product is to survive this market... different environments, different uses, different situations.. same program..
THATS my point...
Thnk about it, if 2 testers neglected their duties as testers, wouldnt it be fair to say that there is a potential other 2 who could replace them who would solely focus on testing and not making a profit within that position?

Im in no way saying replace DSE, he is one of the most intense and knowledgable people ive met.. so please dont think im insulting him... i dont knwo who writes what, but ive seen some things here and withi THIS aaaaaustralian market which makes no sense as to how Sony can continue to segregate Vegas from the rest of the world (such as the certification training... ) Thre are NO official Aussie trainers here.. and the ones which were allocated the task, have apparently pulled out. as there is no mention of them anywhere HERE on this site... How proficient they were/are.. who knows.. but i sure as hell know farss could do it... from what ive heard from him on these boards.. teh guys a friggin genius.. but is he given the offer to test? I wouldnt know.. but then again.. even official distributors of the program arent testers... so what does that tell you...

Insult?? hell if the program was developed and tested in the way in which it SHOULD be, then i dont see where the problem lay..
like i said, i just hope this doesnt become a V6 debacle..
whether theyre insulted by this or not, i really couldnt give a toss, as they took the role to help improve teh application.. if they fail this its on THEIR head... but then we have to bear the brunt of it and work around the issues.
I mean hell its a $500 program.. who cares if its not perfect.. i dont.. i just want the bloody thing to work.. and for now.. it does..
I dont want to change the subject of "the impact of sonys aquisition of SoFo" but it has become that.
The imapct IS that since sony took it on.. testing has failed BADLY... more than once or twice in fact... from the AC3 decode glitch in Architect2 <which apprently didnt exist... despite the evidence on the contrary> , through to the joke launch of 6...
The program is a farce NOW as i only see a select few who DO the testing in the first place.
More testers means more exposure... more results.. more analysis, more problem and in the end, hopefully more solutions

and refering to your comments re- books etc... no i dont believe that one person or a group of people or any one particular company should be given preference to this... by giving them an advance copy of a program not yet available to the public, theyre put in an advantageous position with regard to release time..
.How can anyone else compete? let alone WANT to compete.. they wouldnt.. but its these poeple who may have the knowledge we need...

From my understanding competition is good. it forces one to take extra care and ensure the product is perfect..

The bad side to this monopolising is that there MAY be someone out there whos far more proficient and knowledgable within the application.. but as theyre not behind the ball, their opportunity is taken away before its even given to them.
HOW DO WE KNOW? When these people are virtually silenced before they even try to share their thoughts?
Because of this, we dont knwo what we're missing out on..

Dont get me wrong, there IS a need for training and resources.. hell i never said their wasnt.. what im saying is that exploiting the position of tester moves the focus away from IMPROVING the program. Manuals and training work AROUND the program (an dshortcomings)... not THROUGH it.... which is what beta testing is all about.. working THROUGH the program.. NOT around it...

And no, before u start to think it.. im not refering to myself.. I have enough work on my plate to worry about training.. im just worried about my tools.. and whether i need to go to another shop.. which is something i dont want to do..

NOW do u see where im coming from?

as for beta testers outside the US, I was refering to myself..as in I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT COME ACROSS A TESTER OUTSIDE THE US.... and i used to sell this stuff everyday to everyday users...

if there are testers outside of US.. i havent seen them... thats all im saying...

"This thread is truly fascinating. I'm going to think long and hard about a reply. But what DOES emerge from the input thus far is a depth of care and love people for this product. Sometimes it might appear rough and ready, but again it is a wish for Vegas to survive and still capture out imagination. For me Vegas still does. I can only think that this will be the case for the future too."

well its true.. when we spend copious amounts of time with this program than we do with our own lives.. it becomes a part of your life.. a part of the way u think structure and shoot.. a part of how you structure your work on a day by day basis.. your life pretty much revovles around what this app can and cannot do.. how you deal with situations... problems.. how THIS TOOL will help you FIX that problem... its very psychological and many a Premiere user is far more intense when it comes to these matters.. reason being is taht theyve dealt with problems far longer than we have..

We're lucky, Vegas IS a good tool.. despit the minmal updates or what have you.. it friggin works and thats all i care about

Its not something to take lightly when your livelihood depends on it...

i need sleep.
Cya fellas



I mean its 445am here in aus...

"A perfect example is a beta tester having acess to the product, then focusing more on how to "write a manual " as opposed to actually using it to a point until it breaks... this has happened before... "

And where does that peals of wisdom come from? Sorry to say so. I have started to beta-test Vegas with Vegas 6d only, so I cannot say anything why Vegas 6d had the bugs that it had.

But I never habe been asked by Sony to writte any manual - I test the software over the edge, as far as I can (in all absurd ways that I can think about).

And I am located outside the States, in good old Europe/Austria. And there are other guys outside the States, too.

But if you beta-test Edius, then you will know: even with a lot of beta testers, you never can be sure to find all bugs. The NLEs - also Edius - has become so complex, that you can try your best to identify most of them. Anything else is unrealistic.

There are many sites out there many books and many a training resource which is using this Beta Priviledge as a means for personal or monetary gain.... THAT is my point...

It's not only personal gain for the tester. It's gain for the end user, and for Sony. It's plain old good business sense. When I bought Vegas 6 I found a book readily available that told me right up front what I was getting for my upgrade. Far superior to me haphazardly stumbling on the new features & improvements by accident, or missing them completely and losing the benefits. (And it would be wishful thinking to assume that the owner's manual would have accomplished the same thing.)

But I'm actually telling the story in the wrong sequence. I bought the V6 book (DSE's book) and when I read it, this convinced me that it would be worth my while to upgrade to V6 in the first place. This is obviously beneficial to Sony. Because it helps them sell their product.

so please dont think im insulting him... i dont knwo who writes what...

It was pretty hard to interpret your original postings as anything other than a direct slam against the motives and ethics of Sony and those testers / writers. Quite un called for, IMHO.

For my own part, I am quite thankful that the writers and plugin companies get this advance look at the product. Makes life easier for all of us. Johnny Roy hit the nail on the head.

no i dont believe that one person or a group of people or any one particular company should be given preference to this... by giving them an advance copy of a program not yet available to the public, theyre put in an advantageous position with regard to release time..

How is anyone having an unfair advantage? Are they stealing money from you? Are they winning away your clients?

If Sony didn't give it to them early, Sony would be giving an advantage to the competing products (Avid, PPro, etc.). PPro doesn't say "new release coming, wait a year for plugins to catch up because we don't let them see the product until you do."

For my own part, I can't understand any motive for being jealous or angry about someone getting a beta copy of Vegas 7. What's the privelege? You get to write about it on the forums? You get to make use of some productivity-enhancing bugs that crash your projects?

"How is anyone having an unfair advantage? Are they stealing money from you? Are they winning away your clients?"

The only way I could see that happening is if someone wanted to compete in those markets (training, books, etc...) and Sony decided who got the advance copies and who didnt. That would be unfair IMO. But I have no problem with testers, companies, etc... getting first looks.

Hey everybody,

I know I'm the resident newbie, but I'd like to share my life experience with Sony Vegas. For starters, I've wanted to be a director, an editor, an actor since I was a kid. Even into high school, I had almost zero experience shooting and editing.

Finally, I got the opportunity to be an editor my senior year in high school, when I learned that one of the teachers on campus was looking to hire an editor for pay. The project turned out to be a short promotional for a film he was looking to finance. He had let any 'potentials' know that they would have access to a blazing-fast computer, and the editing software of their choice. I offered to help without actually knowing how, at all, because I was so desperate for the opportunity to do what I had always wanted. Somehow mis-reading my experience and over-reading my ambition, I got the job.

It's honestly a true miracle that he didn't fire me the first day. I spent the entire week before shoot looking up film terms and professional editing software. Starting off on the best foot, I got a call from the teacher, and he was asking me which software I planned on using; he suggested AVID and, trying to sound like I knew what I was talking about, I said "no, no, no, Pinnacle Studio."

So the first day of editing, I accomplished nothing. He was severely unimpressed, and asked me to try things on AVID (which he already had). I did, he was still unimpressed, and so was I. Editing, in my mind, seemed so understandable, but for some reason, the interface just wasn't intuitive.

I don't remember how many boxes of software I saw that week, as he purchased and returned and he purchased and returned. I can't even remember which other software we used and I'm almost convinced I tried every one of them because there just aren't that many. Somehow, I think he was more interested in seeing success than he was identifying the failure.

Finally, one afternoon I tried Sonic Foundry Vegas 4.0d (i believe). I can't tell you how great of a commercial it would have been: instantly, from both of us there were 'wow's and yes's, and we completed most of the project in that ONE day. It was within a week or so that the new SONY branded version was released. I became a fanboy and started landing jobs as an editor all over the place. I never picked up the manual like I should have, but the learning came naturally in Vegas. As I thought to myself "gee, I wish there was a way it could do.." normally what I was looking for was where I would have wanted to find it. When Vegas 5 came out, my clients upgraded and I was thrilled with some of the interface enhancements. When strange crashes or other weirdies occured we (the client and I) would go to technical support, and their replies were always the right solution the first time. I've earned more money in my life working as an editor with Sony Vegas than any other way. Then, two years ago, I purchased my own blazing fast computer. After all expenses (ugh for Adobe stuff), I decided I wanted to own my own copy of Vegas, but eh the price was too steep. I kept the same clients, and as Vegas 6 rolled around I expected them to upgrade.

Then, in a freak twist of fate I won a copy of V6+DVDA. At that point I joined these forums and I've been a true fan-boy ever since. I started reporting on a bug in DVDA shortly after I got it. I wanted to play with the new PSD feature for DVD menu creating, and it wouldn't work, no matter what I did. I went to technical support, and for once, their answer didn't work the first time. It turned out to be an issue with DVDA and CS2 not playing nice. It wasn't long after that we had the second release with the PSD fix. Sony earned my loyalty from that point on. Their improvements since V4 have been monumental for me - release by release they give me more of the tool that set me apart from other editors.

In short, Sony has delivered on target with this overly ambitious editor, and that is due to the great development by the Madison Media team.

"3) Price increase.

Are you sure about that?"


Perhaps you're right. I could have sworn the price went up by $40 not down. Do you have pricing for Vegas 5 or Acid or Sound Forge from the time of changeover?