Those oddball Flash Frames...

PeterWright wrote on 2/10/2004, 8:21 PM

I doubt I'll find any solution, owing to the random nature of this, but I know others have experienced similar things, so I guess it's just something to be on the lookout for.

Yesterday I saw something flash on the timeline, and zoomed in to see what it was. A single frame from about 17 seconds earlier on the same timeline was making an unwanted reappearance.

The odd thing was that it was not from a single event, but involved 3 events - two were in mid-transition and a caption was superimposed.
The other strange thing was that this frame was not rendered, so three separate events representing a frozen "moment" were somehow being replicated.

I noticed that the place where they reappeared was during a fade-in for another event, and, hey presto, when I dragged the fade-in down to nothing, then back to where it was, the ghost frame disappeared.

Slightly different but similar - today I found two unwanted problem frames in an avi I had rendered from a 30 minute timeline. Neither is present on the original timeline, but they are there in the rendered avi.
Both were a copy of the final frame, from the end of the same clip in which they appear - frames that were not originally on the timeline at all.

So, it's hard to pin down why or when, but Vegas, under certain conditions, can impose a frame from elsewhere into either a timeline or during rendering of an avi.

Comments

SonyEPM wrote on 2/11/2004, 6:47 AM

I've said it before: If anybody can provide a repeateable repro case, we can fix this. Send system specs and the .veg file to dr.dropout@sonypictures

JJKizak wrote on 2/11/2004, 7:52 AM

This frame thing is like trying to find a "gravitron" particle in the theory of Strings. I just eyeball the entire project before rendering which does take considerable time and expand the timeline and eliminate the extraneous "anti-Vegas matter".

JJK

Frenchy wrote on 2/11/2004, 10:18 AM

I've seen this on a couple of projects also. Just a single frame from another unrelated part of the project inserted into a seemingly random portion of the timeline.

Unfortunately, I can't provide a repro either.

Like you said Peter, it's just something to be on the lookout for.

Nice to see you back here, EPM - it seems like it's been a while...

Frenchy

craftech wrote on 2/11/2004, 3:32 PM

I wonder if it is related to using multiple 4GB avi files? I use W98SE and Fat32 and I have had the "flash frame" phenomenon. How about you?

John

PeterWright wrote on 2/11/2004, 4:27 PM

Mine happened with 13 Gb 1 hour clips - XP Pro NTFS.

The problem is, it's not always there in the veg - the first instance I described, where a frame from earlier on the timeline appeared, is now gone, and I don't know if it would appear without the avis, which there are hours of! Next time it occurs, though, I shall send the veg and a note of exactly where the frame occurs, in case this is reproducable without the media. Thanks

The other instance, where the frames appeared in a rendered avi, again they're not in the veg, but I will make a couple of wmvs from the problem passages and send them to you, SonyEPM - may not be till tomorrow, I have a busy day today ....

filmy wrote on 2/11/2004, 6:34 PM

I think I have metioned this before - probably along with the whole black frame/gap issues. It is random but I think it seems to happen when you are cutting down a project - in other words, well - the cut of the feature I am doing is over 2 hours and it needs to be cut down to around 90 - 95 minutes. So I am in the process of taking out stuff. I have ripple on for all tracks and I noticed in a few places now I have these random single frames - not left over frames but actual frames in a single event from other events still on the timeline. It is as if Vegas somehow has retained frames in a buffer that somehow that relates to timeline location. Say you have a scene and in that scene there is a frame at time 01;25;10;15 and you cut out an entire scene prior to that so now the same frame that *was* at 01;25;10;15 is now at 01;20;05;02. But yet when playing back you still see the same frame at 01;25;10;15. Make sense?

But is it something anyone can do over and over again? I can't.

Liam_Vegas wrote on 2/11/2004, 6:57 PM

I think you are onto the right thing here. I also do a large amount of editing to reduce 1.5 hours down to 30 minutes on a 3-camera veg. There are hundreds of cuts done with ripple edit. I am very careful to check now.. especially across transitions between events. That is where I have found these single frames appearing mostly.

When it happense next time I'll be sure to save that Veg and send if in for analysis.

JohnnyRoy wrote on 2/11/2004, 8:51 PM

I’ve had this happen with ripple edit on. I now keep it off by default and only turn it on if I absolutely need it and then turn it back off again. I’ve found little bits of cut video rippled under other video and it’s very hard to find. Even though video and audio are grouped by default, I’ve cut out video with ripple edit on and its not cut the audio but rather rippled it under the previous audio and vice versa. I would bet this is the culprit.

~jr

PeterWright wrote on 2/11/2004, 9:25 PM

This seems to be a different subset of problems - in my case I built the project up from scratch rather than starting big and cutting down, and I never have auto ripple on, always use post edit ripple manually.

Also, my unwanted frames were always "virtual" - never actually there on the timeline.

rmack350 wrote on 2/11/2004, 9:53 PM

It sure makes you wonder...

I had a timeline with all sorts of tiny video overlaps. I could never figure out why it was happening but oft-times the audio was slightly longer than the video. It makes me wonder if whether having an audio track selected while deleting material or while rippling might have something to do with this.

Rob Mack

filmy wrote on 2/12/2004, 7:47 AM

>>>Also, my unwanted frames were always "virtual" - never actually there on the timeline.<<<

Exactly, that is what I was saying as well. But I only seem to get them if I ripple something and I don't get them all the time - it is very random.

mattleech wrote on 12/8/2004, 2:43 PM

This problem is now affecting my work to the extent that I'm considering dropping Vegas. I edit a lot of theatre productions that are 2.5 to 3 hours long so I can't sit and watch the final rendered video without blinking just to make sure there are no rogue frames - I have to be able to trust my editing software.

Sometimes I spot the rogue frames while editing, but with three video tracks the preview window rarely runs at 25fps so the problem is easily missed.

What can I do next time I get this problem that will help Sony to find the bug?

Matt.

nickle wrote on 12/8/2004, 3:23 PM

From memory didn't someone write a script to search and destroy single frames that were leftovers and unwanted?

Or does that not apply here?

EDIT http://www.rmtools.se/deleteshortevents.html

rmack350 wrote on 12/8/2004, 5:07 PM

I think that short events may only be one of the problems. Evidently there are cached frames being shown in spots as well.

several things I can think of to do:

Render out a window dub and then find the spots where a stray frame appears in the render. This requires a special effort, of course. Then either send in the render or a segment of it. Also send in the Veg. If the stray frame actually appears in the timeline, grab a screenshot of Vegas and send that in as well as the veg file.

Rob Mack

craftech wrote on 12/8/2004, 7:42 PM

I know Peter has made the offer before, but the problem is that it has to be "repeatable" for Sony Tech to address the issue. If I start from scratch it usually goes away the second time around. I am surprised none of the Techs who work for Sony have ever had the problem since so many of us have encountered this through the last three versions of Vegas.
And you are right. I work on stage productions that involve hours of footage to be edited. Then I have to sit and watch every second of it to make sure there aren't any "flash frames". And lets not forget the blank or black frames as well that pop up from time to time. The roughness of the Ripple edit process combined with the "split" function that can leave half frames and gaps may provide a key to the solution of the problem.

John

PierreB wrote on 12/9/2004, 7:46 AM

I frequently encounter these (or similar) virtual dust bunnies.

I always assumed they were somehow the result of something I was doing wrong and spent my energies trying to delete them rather than understanding where they came from: since they have zero length, they are difficult to select, even at maximum magnification. I have used the Selection Edit tool to vacuum them up.

I just checked the Edit Details on my current project, sorted the events by length, and, sure enough, discovered 3 zero-length events on the timeline, 2 video, 1 audio. The audio was on top of another audio event (and caused an audible pop) while the 2 video gremlins were hiding between 2 events and were invisible on the preview.

Maybe someone could construct a script that would monitor the edit details for zero-length event?

Pierre

Edit: Actually, there were 6 events. 2 video with associated audio, and 2 audio, both of the latter at the same place on the timeline. I was able to delete them via the Edit Details window instead of messing about with the Selection Edit tool.