Time for an end run around HDDVD and BluRay

riredale wrote on 2/26/2006, 12:52 PM
Well, it looks like I'm getting an HDV camcorder any day now, so I've been busy reading up on this forum about editing in the new mode and just musing about this technology in general.

The more I learn, the more I'm astonished that someone hasn't taken a hard look at the HDDVD vs. BluRay format battle, seen the onerous DRM straitjacket that both camps are being forced to wear, and concluded that there is A BETTER WAY. That solution is to just extend the current DVD format into the HD arena by allowing the use of the 264 and WMV9 codecs in addition to regular old MPEG2.

It seems to me that the enormous Chinese DVD player vendors could score a stunning upset by simply announcing that they will be building players that allow the use of all three of these codecs within the DVD-video standard. Almost overnight, there would be a huge change in the industry. Imagine: you can shoot and edit in HDV, then burn your HD creation to DVD and actually show it on your HD set! What a concept!

It's time, it seems to me, to separate the notion of increased storage capacity (HDDVD and BluRay) from the entirely separate concept of HD delivery. IF MPEG2 were all we had, then we'd need the larger capacity to show HD. But MPEG2 is not the only game in town any more. If a user wants more-than-8GB of optical storage, then go for the new formats, but otherwise who needs them?

What am I missing? What's the catch?

Comments

johnmeyer wrote on 2/26/2006, 1:04 PM
See this thread: HD-DVD on the cheap

I commented in that thread that I thought that this alternative method of putting HD on a shiny disk reminded me of how MP3 took hold: no standards committees and no big corporations; instead, just delivering what people REALLY want.

I couldn't agree with you more. The new standards leave me cold.
Laurence wrote on 2/26/2006, 11:07 PM
I refuse to buy into anything that is so infringingly copy protected. I also refuse to buy an HD player that won't plug in to my existing HDTV component ins. Hopefully enough people will feel the same way that we don't get collectively screwed.
SimonW wrote on 2/27/2006, 3:38 AM
I can see there being a more underground development. DIVX HD players for example, WM9HD capable players etc.

I own a TV that only has component HD in, and I'm not going to be happy if I am forced to replace it with an HDMI capable one. There are many people in the same situation, and quite a lot of them are ordinary members of the public who are not aware of this technical issue.
Laurence wrote on 2/27/2006, 5:02 AM
What we really need is a class action suit against the RIAA for forcing manufacturers of DVD players to make our expensive (mine was $3500 a few short years ago) early model HDTVs obsolete.
farss wrote on 2/27/2006, 5:38 AM
I can really see this becoming a huge issue. Down here the networks are already broadcasting a reasonable amount of material in HD and they're being forced to increase the amount of it. Display devices have only just started to appear with HMDI. Now one has to wonder how they're going to explain this to the viewing public when they can watch everything EXCEPT a movie in HD. And how does this pan put with movies they've already got the rights to. Many of those rights were no doubt secured well before HD was even on the radar so quite possibly the distributors will have no way to stop them being broadcast without encryption.
But it gets worse, as noted there's many DVD player out there that do a half decent job of upscaling and almost every display device so far is only actually 720, which is more than adequate for most living rooms. In other words I doubt Joe Average will be able to tell the difference between SD PAL upscaled to 720 and the real thing.
So once he starts thinking about it he'll probably just keep on buying SD DVDs anyway.
Or of course he'll download a HiDef rip of the movie and play it back on his HTPC.
Laurence wrote on 2/27/2006, 5:51 AM
I just ordered a Zenith DVB318 from here:

http://www.wholesaleconnection.com/productDetails.aspx?product=760&refer=1

I plan on rchanging the firmware to the compent version found here:

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/experttips/michaeltlv/lg_dv7832_firmware.html

What this will give me is SD DVDs uprezzed to 1080 HD and played on my HDTV through the component ins. As far as I know, this is the best option available for owners of HDTVs with component only HD inputs.

No it is not going to be true HD, but my set is only 36". The difference on that size of set between real HD and uprezzed SD will be hard to see. It will be fine, and it will keep me out of the world of nasty DRM copy protection schemes that I simply do not want to buy into.

Laurence wrote on 2/27/2006, 5:59 AM
The Zenith DVB318 will uprez to both 720p and 1080i by the way. I understand that you choose the uprez format once and it is set that way until you change it.
JJKizak wrote on 2/27/2006, 9:07 AM
I think the problem with Sony's decisions is there is no teeny bopper input. The old guy's are screwing up and throwing darts at the future products. Well maybe not all of them.

JJK
johnmeyer wrote on 2/27/2006, 9:37 AM
The problem with both these standards is that all the features that have been added that are being talked about here, are features that benefit the copyright holders, but NOT the consumer.

Once you abandon your customers in favor of your suppliers, you are doomed to failure. It is that simple.
fwtep wrote on 2/27/2006, 10:04 AM
Another "I hate corporations" and "copyright protection hurts consumers" thread? Is it Monday already? Boy, ranting against "the man" sure does accomplish a lot. Good job!
Coursedesign wrote on 2/27/2006, 10:53 AM
I think John was talking about media companies suggesting that all the prospective customers have to do to see their new HD movies is to get a new $500-$1,800 player, and, oh-by-the-way, replace the $3,000-$5,000 HDTV they bought last year, with a new one that has HDCP-enabled inputs.

And, oh-by-the-way, next year, Mr. Customer, you have to replace the $1,800 player also, because the first generation won't have BD-J (because it is considered to be the biggest security risk in BD players).

Doesn't sound like a recipe for success.

I'm a polite person (usually), so I'll just say "no."

Others may say something else.

Laurence wrote on 2/27/2006, 11:03 AM
Well not only do I have about $3500 invested in my HDTV, but I built a custom oak cabinet around it. I spent another five grand on that. I think I have a right to grip about companies making my stuff obsolete to protect their copyrights.
fwtep wrote on 2/27/2006, 12:24 PM
Laurence, yes, you do have a right to gripe. And the companies have a right to do what they're doing. The situation illustrates one of the downsides and Catch-22's of being an early adopter. If _MY_ HD TV won't work with the upcoming disk formats, I'll be really upset too, but I'll be kicking myself rather than the companies. After all, I did buy it with no assurances of future compatibility other than for HD broadcasts.

Now, I know you're not one of the lucky ones (and trust me, I ABSOLUTELY DO feel bad about all that money you spent), but at least the number of incompatible HD TVs will be very low. It would be far worse if ALL existing HD televisions were incompatible.

Anyway, I'm sure-- or I'm at least hoping-- that there will be solutions to the problem.

Still, there's two things I say:

1) Get used to potentially pain-in-the-butt copy protection in all areas of content: it's here to stay. And if copy protection goes away, so will a lot of content.

2) This forum isn't the "Copy Protection News Update" site.
Laurence wrote on 2/27/2006, 12:35 PM
1) Get used to potentially pain-in-the-butt copy protection in all areas of content: it's here to stay. And if copy protection goes away, so will a lot of content.

Well the content with these schemes is something I can live without I'm sure.

2) This forum isn't the "Copy Protection News Update" site.

Well this forum is about Vegas, and things Vegas include things HD at this point. How to actually view and distribute my work in HD is directly affected by these types of decisions.
farss wrote on 2/27/2006, 1:36 PM
Firstly I don't know how anyone can say not many people are going to be affected by this, I'd say at least 50% of the prospective market will be. Sales of "High Definition Ready" devices have been very good down here. Only now are ones with HDMI becoming available and they constitute only a small percentage of what's on offer.

Combine that with all the ISPs frantically upgrading their networks to ADSL 2 and beyond. Gigabit internet connections are now being talked about. And what is going to fuel demand for these very fat pipes?

The ISPs must be wringing there hands with glee, to say nothing of the organised crime cartels. Oh you say, they'll never crack the encryption. Like they have to. Thousands of copies of the HD content is travelling around the planet, it's called a 35mm print and they "fall of the back of trucks" all the time.

Bob.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 2/27/2006, 1:48 PM

Someone, somewhere here, and I don't remember who it was (that's not important) made light of my not being an "early adopter" of HD technology in all its forms.

This thread explains why I'm not an early adopter far better than I ever could.

For those who have been (in this specfic case), my heart truly goes out to you. I know and understand your frustration. Hopefully, this might be a lesson to all of us.

As John said so well: "Once you abandon your customers in favor of your suppliers, you are doomed to failure. It is that simple."

Customers have been and are continuing to get jerked around. And those who are getting jerked around have every right to complain about it. Just like the companies have the right to shoot themselves in the foot.

I say, "More power to them. Just try aiming a little higher!"


farss wrote on 2/27/2006, 2:39 PM
> I say, "More power to them. Just try aiming a little higher!"


About 2'6"? You're right, once again it'll be the porn industry that decides the fate of HiDef :)

Bob.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 2/27/2006, 2:56 PM

Actually, Bob, I was thinking more along the lines of another 6 feet, give or take a few inches.


PossibilityX wrote on 2/27/2006, 3:19 PM
I've solved the entire problem of HD by simply refusing to participate in it at all. No HDTV, no HDV camcorder, no Blue Ray or whatever, no Vegas 6 or 7 or 8, no NOTHING.

Part of my decision was made by my wallet, which simply lacks the bulge to do what amounts to a "cassette to CD" overhaul.

You know, every so often an old movie comes on my standard-def, mono sound, broadcast stations-only 19-inch TV and it's in black and white. And I think: Huh. Doesn't look so bad to me. (Just in case you think I'm a Luddite: I finally saw a really sharp HD monitor showing a really beautiful film, and yep, it looked great. But it didn't look $2300 great. I can buy a good used car or motorcycle for that, or a couple of round-trip tickets to Europe, even at today's high prices.)

By the time I can afford the HD insanity, many of these issues will have sorted themselves out and the components will cost about 25% of what they do now. Then I'll buy everything I need---just in time to have to upgrade again.

Video production is great fun. Keeping up with the Joneses isn't.

Maybe I should switch to oil painting---the gear never gets obsolete.
riredale wrote on 2/27/2006, 3:49 PM
I had to laugh at that last comment about oil painting.

I immediately had this vision of living in Italy centuries ago and watching DaVinci running to the supply store in order to get "Burnt Umber v2.0" pigment.
farss wrote on 2/27/2006, 5:28 PM
Actually back then artists used to make their own paint and it couldn't be stored so painting in the field was almost impossible. Well actually they rarely made the paint themselves, they got 'students' to do it.
The invention of the 'tube' changed all that.
Kind of funny how we think the march of technology only happened in our lifetime.

Bob.
fwtep wrote on 2/27/2006, 5:28 PM
farss, sets with HDMI inputs have been available for at least a year, since that's when I got mine and it has HDMI. HD has only taken off in the U.S. in the last year, and those sets have HDMI. It's only people who bought before that who *might* be in trouble, and with the prices the way they were, there aren't a lot of them. Now, by "not a lot" I mean compared to the total number of TV's, and compared to the number of HD sets that will be bought in the near future.

In fact, I'd venture a guess that more HD sets were purchased this past Christmas, or at least over the last year, than in all of the prior years combined. And HD is STILL not pervasive. So as much as it sucks for the early adopters, it's really a small fraction of overall users and potential users.
Laurence wrote on 2/27/2006, 6:19 PM
The only new feature HDMI adds is copy protection. If it wasn't for the copy protection issue, the new HD DVD players would all have hi def video coming out of both component and HDMI outputs and us early adopters would be fine. I respect the rights of copyright holders, but they obviously do not respect my rights as a consumer.
fldave wrote on 2/27/2006, 7:12 PM
My Sony HDTV is 20 months old, and has HDMI. I don't have anything plugged into the port yet, just using Component inputs with over the air antenna.

This future technology dilemna ought to be interesting...